Need Some Help

betam4x

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Hi Guys,

I apologize in advance, this is a bit lengthy.

I'm having a really big problem with my 20 gallon tank. I've had the tank for about 6 weeks or so. I had 2 pink kissing gouramis, 1 cory catfish, and later added 2 tiger barbs when i saw that things seemed to be fine. When i first started this tank i realized that my tap water had chlorine in it so in a panic i added water conditioner which included a chlorine remover. The water conditioner is wardley's 3 in 1 conditioner. It reduces PH to 7.0, neutralizes ammonia, and eliminates chlorine and chloramine. It was the only thing i had at the time so i used it. My filter also has an ammonia remover insert in it. Everything with the tank seemed to be fine for a few weeks except for the fact that Nitrates and Nitrites were always 0, PH was between 6.8 and 7.0, and alkalinity was through the roof. Recently I did a routine test for ammonia and discovered to my shock that the test registered 8ppm. The test is the one with 2 bottles that you drop into a sample of water and mix together. 8ppm seems impossible as the fish are swimming around and doing just fine. They are showing no signs of stress. Nitrates and Nitrites are still at 0. I tried a 50% water change just to be sure, but nothing changed. Ammonia is still registering as through the roof. How can i get that ammonia level under control? I suspect that the only reason it's not hurting the fish is due to the ph level, but i could be wrong. I thought about doing a 100% water change ( I have regular dechlorinator now, i didn't that night and petsmart was closed and my fish were bleeding so i was forced to add the conditioner) but i don't want to lose the fish. Especially that little cory catfish, he is something else. What should I do?
 
Take out that ammonia removing stuff if you already haven't and start doing daily water changes.
I wouldn't do a 100%, but I would do multiple ones until you can get that ammonia WAY down.. to as close to 0 as you possibly can.
Surprised that the tank hasn't cycled yet though. 6 weeks.. you would think you'd have nitrite readings by now and nitrate readings. Guess that ammonia stuff worked a bit too well? *shrugs*
Anywho, read up on fish-in cycling. It's gonna be a lot of work, but it'll be worth it to save the fish :)
 
Agreed with above.^^

The ammonia remover you had in there removed ammonia, but can do so for only so long. Once the ammonia remover is all used up, ammonia is going to start to build up fast. And since your tank is not cycled, your ammonia is going to remain.

With a fully cycled tank, beneficial bacteria colonize in our filters. These bacteria, process ammonia into nitrite, and then another type bacteria in your filters process nitrite to nitrate. Ammonia and nitrite are harmful to fish if there is more than .25 ppm of it in the water. Nitrate, is still harmful to fish, but in a much larger quantity. 40-50+ ppm.
The only way to get nitrate out is by doing weekly water changes, and plants will also use nitrates as well.

So, since you had no ammonia in your tank, because of the ammonia remover, there was no way the beneficail bacteria could colonize in your filter.

I think you caught it just in time. I think the ammonia remover gave up right before you tested your water, dumping a lot of ammonia into the water giving you a high reading. But the ammonia was not in the water long enough for the fish to show any signs of it.

My advice for your is try to see if your LFS will take the fish back so you can do a proper fishless cycle, described here

If you can't bring the fish back, or you do not want to follow this link to get started with a fish-in cycle.

A fish-in cycle is a lot harder than a fishless cycle, and you will be busy doing water changes almost everyday for a couple weeks.

-FHM
 
Well, a few days ago i did a 50% water change and it didn't affect the ammonia levels. Will frequent water changes do any better? How frequent should I do them? Every day?
 
Have you decided on what method you are going to do for cycling the tank yet?

If you decide to do the fish-in cycle, then your first priority is to get the ammonia below .25%.

Do like 30-50% water changes once every hour, taking a reading every hour before you make your next water change to see where you are at.

You probably had more than 8 ppm of ammonia in your tank, that is why it is still registering at 8ppm on your ammonia test after the water change.

-FHM
 
Just as a side note, the products that 'remove ammonia' from the water. Normally just react it with another chemical.
This may be why the fish seemed un affected by such high levels.

Your water testing kits will show up ammonia in the water but if it's in 'safe' molecules then the fish aren't affected by it.
I'm not trying to give you advice on what you should be doing, just giving a suggestion as to why you might be getting Ammonia readings, but without having very sick fish.
 
Hi betam4x and welcome to our forums, :hi:

I agree with good advice given above.

The explanation for why your test is showing 8.0ppm ammonia and the fish are not behaving as if they are about to die is that the "ammonia removers" are actually probably converting some of the ammonia into ammonium and the test doesn't differentiate between ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+) but just shows the total of both. The very fact that we don't have ways to tell the difference is one of the reasons we don't like "removers" as a solution to the ammonia problem in aquariums and instead should always rely on a healthy "biofilter" to process out our excess ammonia. The ammonium of course is the harmless form, very different from the dangerous NH3 ammonia form.

[Let's digress a moment about the ammonium (I'll risk getting into chemistry I don't really remember :lol: )... I believe the ammonium cation (a cation is an atom(s) that's lost some negatively charged electrons and so is positively charged (but not for long!)) tends to quickly form strong bonds with other things it finds in the tank water to form salts and get its charge back to neutral. Those things might be OH- (hydroxide groups), or potentially all sorts of salts (there are lots of salts like ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphates, ammonium chloride.. etc.) It all starts with starts with water being so interesting :hyper: . You've got this little H2O molecules wanting to surround everything but some of them will be separated into H+ ions and OH- ions, giving the NH4+ cations opportunities to do things! Water itself is special, partly because of its 4 hydrogen bonds and sort of 3-dimnesional ability to interact with other molecules around it. The oxygen side of the water molecule is a little negative and the hydrogen ends are a little positive and so water "sticks to itself." Fats and oils (like some of the oils in our fish foods) don't have enough charge to overcome this self-attraction that the water molecules have for each other and so can't "push apart" the water and be "dissolved" but instead may form a slick on the water surface. Lots of other things, like the salts we mentioned and acids and alcohols and lots of stuff can be dissolved, or surrounded by the little water molecules. Anyway, I know I'm going on, but its fascinating how the carbon atom, which is like nature's tinker-toy, being a universal all-angle structural thing, and water, with its ready hydrogens, get so involved in all life forms.. ok, I'll shut up now :lol: ]

Anyway, the thing to pay attention to now are the things about either re-homing the fish and fishless cycling as said, or if fish are still in there then taking the fish-in cycling guidelines very seriously. It also may be necessary to discuss your current ammonia testing kit in more detail to see whether maybe a different one would be recommended.

~~waterdrop~~
 
I should of seen that coming...lol. :lol:

WD loves going into detail! :lol:

But he sure knows what he is talking about!

-FHM
 
Lol, an A level in chemistry means I sadly understood all of that :blush:

I'm still going for my simple, 'safe' ammonia molecules.
I think they did the explanation job just as well!
*pouts*

Nevermind eh. lol. I'm sure my boss wouldn't have appreciated me spending quite as long as you did explaining all of that.
 
Lol, an A level in chemistry means I sadly understood all of that :blush:

I'm still going for my simple, 'safe' ammonia molecules.
I think they did the explanation job just as well!
*pouts*

Nevermind eh. lol. I'm sure my boss wouldn't have appreciated me spending quite as long as you did explaining all of that.
Same here, it is fun reading it.

It has been three years now since I have taken chemistry, but I still remember quite a bit. I am going to be taking it again here soon at the University here.

So I will be "updated." lol

Once again, great explanation by WD.

-FHM
 
Thank you so much everyone for ALL your help!

I decided to do a 100% water change. I did it 2 days ago. After doing the water change I monitored ammonia levels. Today i picked up some StressZyme+ and added it to the tank to speed up the cycling process. I will also be doing daily water changes of 10-15% to keep the ammonia levels down, more frequently if the ammonia spikes too high. So far the two pink kissing gouramis and the cory catfish are fine other than being scared to death from the 100% water change. The tiger barb i don't know about. He is tilted an an angle and moves his mouth really fast sometimes, then suddenly he becomes normal again and starts swimming around the tank. I'm not really concerned about the tiger barb anyway. My fiancee LOVES the catfish and the gouramis, so they are really the ones i'm focused on.
 
Glad to hear your water-changing has perhaps helped some. In the future if you decide to do a 100% water change you could consider doing about 3 50% water changes an hour apart each. This accomplishes the same thing without stressing the fish quite as much usually.

Can't remember what your testing kit was. Have you got a liquid-reagent based testing kit?

~~waterdrop~~
 
The test kit for ammonia is a liquid test kit. It is by aquarium pharmaceuticals. It has 2 bottles that you mix in with 5 ML water to get the results.

I also have test strips to test the nitrite/nitrate/PH/Hardness/alkalinity levels. Yesterday I picked up another brand of test strips that includes a chlorine test in addition to those items, but i don't know if it's any good. It's made by API, the previous ones were made by Jungle Labs.
 
For cycling, you will want to get a nitrite kit that you can trust. That means more liquid reagent type testing that you will do . The problem we have seen repeatedly is that people using test strips will get a liquid reagent type and suddenly understand what has been harming the fish. The strips are notoriously inaccurate.
 

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