My Ocean Reef

Cough, cough, if you think you are just going to get away with that :hyper: get an update on Mr!!

Seffie x

Sorry Seffie will try to do one for you all, i been very busy over the last fews months with work so not been online for a bit.

Current Stock

Fish
1 Yellow Tang
1 Reagal Tang
1 Green Mandarin
1 Royal Gramma
1 Humbug Damsel
1 Randalls Goby
1 Clownfish (not seen the male for a couple of weeks)
1 McCoskers Wrasse/Carpenters (duno which)
5 Sharknose Gobies

Inverts

1 Cleaner Shrimp
1 Pink Brittlestar
1 Banded Brittlestar
1 Long Spinned Sea Urchin
2 Reg Legged Hermit Crabs
2 Blue Legged Hermit Crabs
2 True Turbo Snail
3 Cerith Snails
4 Nassarius Snails

Corals

1 Purple Mushrooms colony
1 Red Mushrooms colony
1 Blue Mushrooms colony
1 Green Hammer
1 Kenya Tree
1 Green Star colony
1 Leather
2 Toadstools

& 1 Red Mangrove Tree (the urchin ate the kelp. little #29###)
 
I'm really interested about the mangrove - I know they are used in Brackish but don't know much about using them in full marine. Can we have a photo and a little bit of info please?

Seffie x
 
I'm really interested about the mangrove - I know they are used in Brackish but don't know much about using them in full marine. Can we have a photo and a little bit of info please?

Seffie x


The use of mangroves in aquariums

The use of mangroves plants for filtration in a saltwater aquarium, particularly for helping to reduce and control nitrates is not a new concept. It has been around for quite some time, but few aquarists have really known much about it. However, this is changing because more and more aquarists are looking for a "natural" method of filtration for their aquariums, so mangroves are drawing more attention all the time. Mud filtration is not required to grow mangroves. They can be grown in a sump, refugium or directly in an aquarium. They are fed by absorbing nutrients and organics from the water, which in turn creates a natural filter for cleaning water. Mangroves not only have the ability to absorb nitrates, but phosphates and other organics as well. In fact, they remove organics so well from the water that they act as a replacement for a protein skimmer. When using mangroves you will notice your protein skimmer working less and less all the time. The more the mangroves grow and mature, the more they absorb the excess organics in your water, and the skimmer has nothing to remove and becomes obsolete. If you are a naturalist and don't want to have to use chemical additives or compounds to reduce and control nitrates in your aquarium, this is a very effective filtration method to consider. If this method of filtration is not up your alley, there are other nitrate control methods to choose from.

About the mangrove itself

There are several species of mangroves that are used by aquarists as a means of filtration, particularly to reduce DOCs, nitrates and other toxins in a saltwater aquarium; White (Laguncularia racemosa), Oriental (Bruguiera gymnorrhiza), and Red (Rhizophora mangle L.).

Mangroves possess a number of unique "oddities" in the flora world which make them adaptable to many environments. Mangroves are plants that live in freshwater swamps, and along brackish and salt water shoreline areas. They have the ability to live in saltwater by straining freshwater from the salwater through their roots. The cells in the roots take in water, but because the cells are so small, they do not allow the salt molecules to be absorbed. Nature's own little RO/DI unit.

Introduction of mangroves is done by way of the seeds, which look like long pods that are fat at the bottom (root area) and skinny at the top (leaf growing area). Newly produced and sheaded seeds float around on water tides and currents, until they finally come to roost. The seeds only need a short period of non-movement to start anchoring into mud, sand, or rock structures they often get trapped in between. There are four basic stages of mangrove seed growth that one can buy.

Tips when buying mangroves

Some suppliers cultivate and harvest mangroves from the wild, while others aquaculture them in closed systems. If buying over the Internet, check your local laws. There are some U.S. states and undoubtedly other countries that prohibit importation of mangroves. If you live in or are traveling to an area where mangroves are endemic and you wish to collect your own, once again make sure that you check the local laws first. Some U.S. states, like Florida, consider the mangrove to be a "protected species", with hefty fines incurred if you are caught with them, while others, like Hawaii, consider them to be a "weed", having little or no concern about anyone collecting or having them.

There are four basic stages of mangrove seed growth:
1.The seed with no roots or leaves.
2.The seed with knobby root starts beginning to form, but no root sprouts yet.
3.The seed with some roots started and a leaf sprout formed.
4.The seed with a full root system and fully grown leaves.
If you get seeds in the first or second stages, it will take a while for them to mature. Mangroves in the third stage have a good root start and will grow to maturity faster. In the fourth stage you already have mangroves with an advanced root system, and generally you can see results in a very short period of time after introduction into the aquarium.

Just remember, if you are going to buy mangroves you need to know how to acclimate them, before you get them. if you dont they may not open the pod.


Acclimatising mangrove plants

The biggest mistake that one can make is immediately slam the mangroves into some water, expose them to intense lighting, such as metal halides, and then hope for the best. This is a sure fire course to failure.

Mangrove plants received by mail order will more than likely have been in transit for several days without light, water and CO2. The plants can literally be in "shock" when you open the package. Therefore, they should be slowly and carefully acclimated and introduced to their new environment. After shipping, sometimes they may even go through a dormant stage, but if cared for properly they will awaken from this dormant stage and continue to grown and mature. Hopefully the plants you receive will have been well prepared for shipping. To us this is best done when the leaves and roots are wrapped in a damp water absorbent material (paper towels/newspaper) and sealed in a plastic bag. Remove the plants from the shipping material and gently rinse them in room temperature fresh or tank water. This will remove any extraneous contaminants, and allows the plants to "breathe" and adapt the their surroundings, before placing them into their new home.


Care for the mangroves

The method most often used for keeping mangroves is to place them in a sump, or a refugium can be used. The seeds are inserted into pieces of styrofoam and floated with the roots in the water, then provided with a plant light source, and some aquarists suggest an iron supplement.

Since we don't have a sump or a refugium, we always placed our red mangrove (Rhizophora mangle L.) plants directly into our aquarium by submersing the root systems in the tank water, after they were precleaned and acclimated, and kept the leaves above the tank lights. We found that exposure to less light for the first few days/week was better. In fact, they grew quite well just from the ambient tank lighting and we never had to add a separate plant light, nor did we ever add an iron supplement. If you are concerned that your plants may not be getting the light they need, add or increase the lighting gradually. A 40 watt plant light will be sufficient. Don't place the light too close to the plants, as this can fry the leaves. As a test, put your hand between the light source and the tips of the leaves. If you can feel heat, the light is too close!
also make sure that you keep the leaves clean on the mangroves , as they absorb the nuetrients and if salt water gets onto them they cant do the job, so you have to clean the leaves ideally spray with clean ro water and wipe the leaves .


Further Information on Mangroves

This second update on mangroves deals mostly with answers to Questions received and, believe me, there were many. Mangroves seem to, indeed, have captured a lot of interest amongst reefkeepers, and even FO (fish-only) tank owners want more information (yes you can use mangroves on FO tanks also).
Some hobbyists have pointed out that they already own fluorescent fixtures and are wondering if these can be used. The answer is of course: yes. By all means. Add a low Kelvin degree bulb or two (depending on your fixture) and you will be fine. What you are looking for is Plant or Grow lights or FL tubes with a K degree rating of around 3300 (as that includes a lot of red and yellow which is excellent for plant and mangrove growth).
The lowest amount of plant light you want to use is 20 watts. 40 watts for 12 hours a day is better.


FAQ

•How much iron should you have in the tank?
A: 0.05/0.07 ppm seems to be fine but even a little lower than that will help the mangroves develop a root structure faster.

•Is Carbon dioxide addition necessary?
A: No it is not. There is enough in the water for the mangroves to uptake (especially during the night).

•Should I run my light on a reverse cycle?
A: No. Run them during the day or, expressed in a clearer manner, during the same time you run your tank lights.

•Should I add anything else to the water:
A: You may wish to do this in the beginning but when your mangroves are growing well this is no longer necessary. They should find plenty of food sources in the tank's water.

•What about Molybdenum?
A: Mb is presentin KSM so if you add that product from TAD/TAT you are providing it and that will help the mangroves as well.

•Some leaves seem to get brownish around the edges, what do I do?
A: Nothing until there is another leaf unless that one turns totally brown in which case you have insufficient amounts of nutrients in the water (add a little iron and you should be ok).

•Why do I need mangroves at all if I already have live sand and live rock?
A: Good question indeed! To clean up the water further and recycle nutrients. Phosphates and nitrates will remain low and your water quality will be improved. You get purer water because the mangroves are excellent for removing nutrients and other elements (e.g. trace metals)

•How many mangroves do I really need?
A: 1 per 10 to 15 gallons is a good average to go by. You can put more in your sump or even tank, but it does not appear to be necessary.

•Do I need "mud" or "sand" or "SiltSand"?
A: Actually it really depends on how you set your mangroves up. After a while for nutrient recycling it is better to place them in either real mangrove mud (and this is "not" the same mud as used in the Leng Sy system) or in "SiltSand" which is a mixture of fine and coarser live sand. For the first few months though that is really not necessary.
If you wish to do so you can of course but unless the roots are getting real large there is in my experience no need to do so.
I have tanks set up of all three kinds and all mangroves do just fine.

•Will my mangroves grow too large?
A: No, they will not. The roots get larger but you can alwasy trim those back if need be. The seed itself can be kept small by nipping off the leaves (always leave at least one). Never pinch all the leaves off.
This will keep the mangrove to 8 to 10 inches. If you feel like it you can let it grow larger but it is not necessary for water purification. I have one that has 16 leaves and is about one foot tall and looks real nice and sits in a 30 gallon sump installed on a 75 gallon tank. It is not yet in mud or sand and has a rather large root structure. I am letting it grow to see how large it will actually become in aquarium conditions as opposed to in nature. It has taken over 9 months to get it that large and I "planted" it in styro shortly after we arrived in Atlanta in early April of 1997.

•What will happen to my skimmer when I use mangroves in my tank?
A: Actually not much in the beginning but as the mangroves develop a more elaborate root structure and really start to clean up the water you will have to re-adjust the skimmer or it will not remove anything. If you use enough mangroves the skimmer will eventually become redundant. Yes, that is what I said: you will no longer need it. This will however not happen for some time (several months depending on the load in the tank and the number of mangroves you use - the more you have the sooner this will happen). This is a new twist to water filtration of course.


More Suggestions and Answers to Questions

Root trimming: As time goes by, and you will be surprised how little time it actually takes, the roots of your mangroves will start to grow and become more abundant and thicker. You can let them grow for quite some time without doing anything to them as the root structure is what cleans up your water.
There will come a point though where the roots will be thick and intertwined. That would be the time that you want to trim them back by shortening some and thinning the mass out. Do not worry, they will regrow. The roots are important so do not cut them back all the way. It is unlikely that you will have to do anything to them in the first few months anyway. By then I will have pictures in this document that show you what I mean by really intertwined and thick.
Water flow/motion: should be moderate to high. Mangroves like good flow over the root structure. In fact you will notice that the roots expand in the direction of the flow. Flow is not critical, but there must be some. If you leave everything as it is now running in your sump, you are probably doing just fine. There is not need to add special water motion devices because you have added mangroves. The flow created by the water coming down from the tank and going back to the tank should be enough.

•How large do they get? and how to keep small:
in aquarium sumps mangroves stay small and I have already explained that one way to do so is to trim leaves off when there are three or four but ... leave at least one leaf. Do not nip them all off. You must leave one.

•Leaves turn brown?
yes some of the leaves will turn brown. This is not unusual and is similar to what happens to house plants. The most likely explanation I have found is lack of iron or too levels of nutrients for the number of mangroves you have. Basically you may have too many or you have not trimmed the roots and there is not enough foodstuff in the water. Solution: trim the roots and maybe remove one mangrove if you are on the high side (e.g. 1 per 10 gallons of water). There is no danger in this though.

•Do I really need mud?
Not really and certainly not in the beginning but it is going to help in the future when the mangroves get larger and when the root structure is more intricate. More on that in a next update.

•What happens to the skimmer when mangroves are added?
as some of you have noticed and as was pointed out on the reefkeeping mailing list, after a few days the skimmer really does not have that much to remove anymore as the mangroves are doing a real good job at taking care of that and the skimmer does not produce much skum even after adjusting it.
Take the mangroves out and wait a day or two and suddenly the skimmer starts to produce skimmate again and its consistency changes as time goes by. The longer you leave the mangroves out the darker the skimmate becomes and the more it resembles what the skimmer used to remove. Put the mangroves back in and within a few days the skimmer is flat again. The mangroves have in effect taken its funtion over. Should you dispense with your skimmer. I guess you could but I am not quite ready to make that statement yet. Oxygenation still occurs. Perhaps if we enshance oxygen uptake in other manners we can indeed remove the skimmer altogether. I am testing this and will report on my findings. I have several tanks running without skimmer that are doing very well (in fact in my opinion better than before when the skimmer was running).

•What about additives?
Continue to add what you were. Do not change anything to that and make sure that you test your water the way you used to. There is no reason to change that at all since the additives are for the benefit of corals and fishes

You will see 5 principal results:

1.The Nutrients go down and are lower faster than in the Control tanks. This applies to phosphates and nitrates but also to silicates.
2.Oxygen levels go up faster.
3.BOD, or biological oxygen demand, is far lower in tanks with mangroves than in tanks where there are none indicating that the mangroves uptake more of the organic material than the skimmers removed in the other tanks.
4.Oxygen levels stabilize and are generally higher.
5.This all takes time. It does not happen in a few weeks.
Feed water from the "tank" to the mangroves not water from the skimmer, and do not run ozone in that sump or you will damage the root system of the mangroves.

If the parts that are above the water level seem to dry out and turn brown, they may be receiving too much heat from the light source you are using. If when placing your hand close to the mangrove seed you can feel the heat from the light source, the light is too close and you will need to get it further away.
Sunlight does mangroves a lot of good so if you have seeds that do not seem to be doing all that well, place them in a shallow tray with SW from your aquarium and place them in the sun or by a window in the sunlight. If you place them outside make sure the temperature of the water does not drop too much. This is especial helpful in the beginning when you have just received your seeds and they need a growth boost.
Yellowing occurs but is not really the result of having mangroves in the tank. Organic matter in the aquarium decays and forms yellowing matter (also called Gilvin). At first the mangroves may not remove it but after a while they will. If on top of that your skimmer is not operating at full force because of the nutrient depletion by the mangroves, it may not remove as much organic matter as it normally does. Note though that once the mangrove really start performing what they do best your overall water quality will be better than what you now have providing you have enough of them in the tank. This can be seen in the document where I listed all the testing results.

If you decide to use mangrove mud you will need about 1.5 pounds per mangrove.

No credit should go to me for this article, it was pasted to me from a fellow reefkeeper.
 
Two vids of the tank, there not the best but will have to do!

http://s286.photobucket.com/albums/ll83/andywatson29/?action=view&current=P1010815.mp4

http://s286.photobucket.com/albums/ll83/andywatson29/?action=view&current=P1010816.mp4
 
Cool and they even have their own little tv to watch :D the flasher is looking colourful.

Thanks for the info on mangrove, i will be interested in your progress with them

Seffie x
 
Cool and they even have their own little tv to watch :D the flasher is looking colourful.

Thanks for the info on mangrove, i will be interested in your progress with them

Seffie x
Well mine has grown 1-2 inch since about mid feb, so doing well.
 
I suppose i should do an update!!!

Current fish stock is:

1 Yellow Tang
1 Regal Tang
2 Percula Clownfish (WC)
1 Humbug Damsel
1 Randall's Goby

Am thinking of adding the following:

1 Potter's Angel (Centropyge potteri)
1 Tailspot Wrasse (Halichoeres melanurus)
1 Royal Gramma (Gramma loreto)
 
What happened to the manderin mate.

I had one in my nano for a couple of weeks before i ended up taking him back because my pod culture crashed!....Gutted!....

Tank is looking good!.....I'm sure it looks even better now. How about a FTS pic!
 
What happened to the rest of the fish? How's that Humbug getting on had heard they were terribly grumpy and often didn't get on with anything else, what experience you had with yours.
 
Tank sorta had a crash (heater blow), over the winter!!! Was 2-3 days before i noticed it (temp dropped from 26 to 12!!!) Lost the neons, clownfish, gramma n mandarin to it. Wrasse jumped out about a week later was totally gutted. Lesson learned now have 2 heaters in. Then in feb came across the wild caught pair of percs so had to have them. Humbug tries to be a bit of a bully towards the male clown but he gives as good as he gets plus the female batters him when he comes near her.
 
Tank sorta had a crash (heater blow), over the winter!!! Was 2-3 days before i noticed it (temp dropped from 26 to 12!!!) Lost the neons, clownfish, gramma n mandarin to it. Wrasse jumped out about a week later was totally gutted. Lesson learned now have 2 heaters in. Then in feb came across the wild caught pair of percs so had to have them. Humbug tries to be a bit of a bully towards the male clown but he gives as good as he gets plus the female batters him when he comes near her.

Sorry to hear that mate.

I had a humbug!........He did'nt last long against my other 2 damsels. I have to learn the hard way don't I! :lol:
 
Well been to the lfs n had a quick chat to the bloke, good news hes going to try and get hold of a Potter's Anglefish and a Tailspot Wrasse for me but he couldnt put a date on it, but two fish well worth the wait.
 
Sorry to hear about the stock Andy, that once hapenned to me but in reverse, the heater stuck on and cooked all my fish, it was awful :sick:

Seffie x
 
Ok you guys are going to grill me!!! Been to the lfs today for 10 gallons of salt water for the water change later today. Had a look arround the stock as you do. Looked at the tons of corals that they have (if only i had thousands to spend) then went and looked at the fish, hmmm nice looking tang there (Brown Powder) very nice Flame Angelfish and loads more too untill in one of the tanks was a.................. Do i say it???




















A Bluestreak Cleaner Wrasse. Yes i know they should remain on the reef before you shoot me but if i left him anyone could buy the little fella and i am going to do my best for him, now the only stock i had die from this place was the wrasse that jumped a while back so i know he uses and has good stock. I am sorry but i knew i had to have him, now i have seen loads of cleaners for sale and have never been tempted but this guy doing all the twists and turns they do just made me want him and for £10.50 only. So i will do what ever it takes for the little guy (Most likely a female atm). I will upload pics a little later.
 

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