My Fishless Cycle Log

Don't forget that there can be significant activity in both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) at the levels below "zero" (our crude test kits just give us something we take to be "zero ppm" at some point where they no longer have the sensitivity to detect enough of the substance (ammonia or nitrite) to cause a reaction that results in color. This doesn't mean that there is not "substance." Does that make sense?

Another way to think about this is as follows: Think about a mature biofilter (say your sponge sitting there with A-Bacs and N-Bacs stained all over the little surfaces of the sponge material) and a healthy population of fish now populating the tank. What is happening? The fish are putting out perhaps 2 or 3ppm of ammonia and yet since you now have a working biofilter, you are always measuring zero ppm ammonia and zero ppm nitrite, right? A healthy flow -below- the "zero" level is going on: ammonia is getting processed by the A-Bacs in to nitrite(NO2) and before your test can detect any, the N-Bacs are processing the nitrite(NO2) into nitrate(NO3) and so you know in theory that nitrate(NO3) is slowly rising in the tank water (unfortunately, our NO3 tests are so insensitive and sometimes downright "whacky" that we rarly get to really have a way to see that little slowly rising bit. What a shame!)

My point is to answer the question you asked in boldface: Yes, now that you are seeing a little bit of drop in the ammonia you added, you can assume that yes, the N-Bacs are beginning to process a little bit of nitrite(NO2) into nitrate(NO3) but that it is just not enough to leave any EXCESS nitrite(NO2) that would give you some purple color instead of the blue you've been seeing for so long. And yes, patience is truly the biggest problem by far that we all deal with here, lol.

As OM47 mentions, soon your A-Bacs will be pumping out so much NO2 that there will be an excess and you will finally begin to see or almost immediately experience your nitrite spike (unless the seeded sponge has so many N-Bacs that it processes it on through to NO3 right from the start.) I see that you have actually found a business which advertises that it is simply putting sponge filters in tanks of fish and then shipping you a mature media (MM) sponge. This should be great - this is what you are getting when you get an MM donation from another member of the forum here and it can be a significant help to a first cycle.

Are you planning to leave the little 3-inch sponge block filter inside your 12G forever? I ask because if not, then your real goal is to cycle your -main- filter. The mature sponge you've purchased will begin to give you feedback that you're cycling the tank but that feedback will be more indicative of what the new sponge is doing, not necessarily the main biowheel filter. The autotrophic bacteria do not migrate easily between filters. People often want to put a mature filter on a new tank and hope that the mature filter will "seed" the new filter. This can take up to 6 months sometimes!

In your case, if you want to eventually get rid of the sponge block filter and run only with the less-visible HOB filter, you will want to probably use scissors to slice up the block filter and put little sponge strips into the pouches of the "panels" in the biowheel filter (I think they usually have little sacks on plastic frames in the box below the biowheel, right? These biowheel filters are among the types of filters where the design is focused on trying to sell you replacement media on a regular basis, which is not something that is desirable to experienced hobbyists, unfortunately. But often one of the sacks is filled with carbon and can be replaced with the strips of mature sponge you have (carbon is basically useless after 3 days in the tank, which is why hobbyists rarely use it on a regular basis.)

Now don't get me wrong. In your case, even if you're planning to eventually get rid of the sponge block, I'd still proceed to "cycle" the tank with the sponge intact as it currently is. You want to be sure the bacteria you've received are allowed to survive and grow after the disturbance of being moved (99% of the time bacteria moves just fine!) I would still wait a good long time before doing the sort of scissors procedure I've described above. (not to mention that it is sheer speculation on my part as perhaps you plan to keep the sponge filter intact or use it for your quarantine tank or such.)

~~waterdrop~~
 
Don't forget that there can be significant activity in both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) at the levels below "zero" (our crude test kits just give us something we take to be "zero ppm" at some point where they no longer have the sensitivity to detect enough of the substance (ammonia or nitrite) to cause a reaction that results in color. This doesn't mean that there is not "substance." Does that make sense?

Another way to think about this is as follows: Think about a mature biofilter (say your sponge sitting there with A-Bacs and N-Bacs stained all over the little surfaces of the sponge material) and a healthy population of fish now populating the tank. What is happening? The fish are putting out perhaps 2 or 3ppm of ammonia and yet since you now have a working biofilter, you are always measuring zero ppm ammonia and zero ppm nitrite, right? A healthy flow -below- the "zero" level is going on: ammonia is getting processed by the A-Bacs in to nitrite(NO2) and before your test can detect any, the N-Bacs are processing the nitrite(NO2) into nitrate(NO3) and so you know in theory that nitrate(NO3) is slowly rising in the tank water (unfortunately, our NO3 tests are so insensitive and sometimes downright "whacky" that we rarly get to really have a way to see that little slowly rising bit. What a shame!)

My point is to answer the question you asked in boldface: Yes, now that you are seeing a little bit of drop in the ammonia you added, you can assume that yes, the N-Bacs are beginning to process a little bit of nitrite(NO2) into nitrate(NO3) but that it is just not enough to leave any EXCESS nitrite(NO2) that would give you some purple color instead of the blue you've been seeing for so long. And yes, patience is truly the biggest problem by far that we all deal with here, lol.

As OM47 mentions, soon your A-Bacs will be pumping out so much NO2 that there will be an excess and you will finally begin to see or almost immediately experience your nitrite spike (unless the seeded sponge has so many N-Bacs that it processes it on through to NO3 right from the start.) I see that you have actually found a business which advertises that it is simply putting sponge filters in tanks of fish and then shipping you a mature media (MM) sponge. This should be great - this is what you are getting when you get an MM donation from another member of the forum here and it can be a significant help to a first cycle.

Are you planning to leave the little 3-inch sponge block filter inside your 12G forever? I ask because if not, then your real goal is to cycle your -main- filter. The mature sponge you've purchased will begin to give you feedback that you're cycling the tank but that feedback will be more indicative of what the new sponge is doing, not necessarily the main biowheel filter. The autotrophic bacteria do not migrate easily between filters. People often want to put a mature filter on a new tank and hope that the mature filter will "seed" the new filter. This can take up to 6 months sometimes!

In your case, if you want to eventually get rid of the sponge block filter and run only with the less-visible HOB filter, you will want to probably use scissors to slice up the block filter and put little sponge strips into the pouches of the "panels" in the biowheel filter (I think they usually have little sacks on plastic frames in the box below the biowheel, right? These biowheel filters are among the types of filters where the design is focused on trying to sell you replacement media on a regular basis, which is not something that is desirable to experienced hobbyists, unfortunately. But often one of the sacks is filled with carbon and can be replaced with the strips of mature sponge you have (carbon is basically useless after 3 days in the tank, which is why hobbyists rarely use it on a regular basis.)

Now don't get me wrong. In your case, even if you're planning to eventually get rid of the sponge block, I'd still proceed to "cycle" the tank with the sponge intact as it currently is. You want to be sure the bacteria you've received are allowed to survive and grow after the disturbance of being moved (99% of the time bacteria moves just fine!) I would still wait a good long time before doing the sort of scissors procedure I've described above. (not to mention that it is sheer speculation on my part as perhaps you plan to keep the sponge filter intact or use it for your quarantine tank or such.)

~~waterdrop~~


Wow thanks so much for your detailed reply! That did make sense to me! So hopefully things are moving in the right direction. I'm going to start testing every 12 hours now to see what the levels do. I'm getting excited! Hopefully in a week or two I'll be able to add fish! Yay!

I do plan to keep the seeded cube filter in the tank. It is rather large and unwieldy, but I think as you said i t's best not to mess with it. Plus I do have a 5 gal hex tank that I could use as QT tank in an emergency and this filter would help with that. For now the filter is right next to the intake of the tank filter so that hopefully any bacteria on the new filter gets sucked up into my tank filter. Once the tank is ready for fish I may just slide the seeded cube sponge over to the opposite corner and try to hide it with some plants. It looks rather large for my tank but its' the smallest they had and if it's helping I'm not going to mess with it.

So I'll just continue testing and see what happens. Thank you!!


 
I dosed the ammo back up to 4 after yesterday's test but now I'm wondering if that's too high.

Today's test results, almost 48 hours after installing seeded filter sponge (and 24 hours after yesterday's first test with the sponge; ammo had gone down to 0.5 so I dosed it back up yesterday):

Ammo: about 4 (this is the issue with the API kit; if I hover it over the card, the color looks lighter and matches about 4, if I hold the tube AGAINST the card the color is darker; which is accurate?)
NitrIte: still 0
NitrAte: 2.5-5? If I hover it over the card, it looks in between 0 and 5. If I hold it against the card, it looks more like 5. Also the Gh/Kh kit says if you have trouble reading the colors to look down into the tube from the top. If I do this with the nitrate kit, it looks more reddish, like 40. But I'm guessing it's the color of the tube itself that's the reading we take? Ugh, why don't they make these blasted things less ambiguous.
Ph: 7.6+++ darker blue than on the chart
High range Ph: 7.4 or a shade lighter

I also have lots of foam on the top of my tank. Usually there has been many bubbles probably from the cranked up air stone and now the added bubbles from the sponge filter. But today it's FOAM. I am using the right ammo ( pic below, the ACE hardware, 10% ammonium hydroxide). is it just the added ammo reacting with the bubbles? Also my water is STILL cloudy, has been since day 3. If it were a bacterial bloom, shouldn't it have settled by now?

So any hopes of this tank cycling is going down the drain along with my confidence.
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Should I do a pwc to get the ammo down a bit or give it more time?
 

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Anyone? Ideas on the foam? If it's still there tonight I'll do a pwc but I'm curious as to what it might be and if I should be worried. The only two things I added prior to the foam showing up were the seeded sponge filter (hooked up to an air pump) and another dose of ammo.
 
Are ther any other ingredients in that bottle of ammonia other than ammonia ?

Sometimes as ammonia is used as a cleaning liquid it has other things in it.
 
Are ther any other ingredients in that bottle of ammonia other than ammonia ?

Sometimes as ammonia is used as a cleaning liquid it has other things in it.

Hi, no that's the only ingredient. I first went to Walmart but it had surfactants in the ingredients so I didn't use it. This is the ACE Janitorial Ammonia that everyone seems to recommend when cycling tanks. Nothing else is listed. I've done some additional searching online and apparently high amounts of ammonia can cause foam, so I'm wondering if it's the addition of the pure ammonia into the tank or maybe I dosed it too high. I'm going to try a water change tonight and see if that improves anything.
 
No. That's the same ammonia that I am using and I haven't seen anything like that with the foaming. (In fact, it is the only ammonia source I am aware of in the US that doesn't have additives.



Could it be related to proteins created by another bacteria from the sponge? SBS, waterdrop or OM47 would have a better take on this, but I can assure you that it is NOT that you are using the wrong ammonia source.
 
I think you might have dosed the ammonia too high. If the sponge has been kept ticking over in a breeding tank or holding tank or whatever, the bacterial colony won't be quite as strong as it would be if it was a filter at the end of a fishless cycle.

Dosing it to 1 or 2ppm and stocking very lightly at first is the way to go I should think; that's what I do when I clone a filter anyway.
 
I think you might have dosed the ammonia too high. If the sponge has been kept ticking over in a breeding tank or holding tank or whatever, the bacterial colony won't be quite as strong as it would be if it was a filter at the end of a fishless cycle.

Dosing it to 1 or 2ppm and stocking very lightly at first is the way to go I should think; that's what I do when I clone a filter anyway.

Great thanks I just got home and checked the tank and the foam is on one side, on the right, where the water comes out of the tank filter. Also many of my fake plants were uprooted and for now I just kept them that way until I'm ready for fish and I can aquascape a bit better and the plants are all buched up on that side with the air stone, so maybe there's just too many bubbles on that side and nowhere for them to go. I'm going to test the water and then do a water change to get the ammo down to about 2 and spread out the plants, see if that helps. Thank you!
 
Not sure if I should panic.

I swished the foam/water around and most of it dissipated but not all. I then took water paramaters:

ammo 4-5, approx
nitrIte 0
NitrAte 5
ph: 7.6+ (dark blue)
high range ph: 7.6 or a shade lighter

I then decided to put the tank water in a container with a lid and shake it and see if there's any foam; there was some foam/bubbles when doing the shake test with tank water, but not sudsy like the pic in my previous post and most of the bubbles popped fairly fast: Video Link

BUT then I put water straight from the tap in the container and did the same test; not many bubbles at all and the few there were popped quickly. I then added ammonia to the container and swished again; hardly any bubbles at all, same as with the straight tap water. So, now I'm a bit worried. Either I did something stupid by putting soap or something in there (but I've been wracking my brain and I haven't put anything in the tank or washed anything and I haven't even put my hands in there lately) or it's the new filter and/or the air stone.

I did a 5 gal water change and moved the plants around and filled the water up so that the output of water from the filter isn't quite falling so much to get to the tank. It seemed to help some (pics below) but there is still a small line of foam on the top of the tank, although not as much as before the pwc (at least not yet).

Should I worry that I did something stupid by accident? Should I buy a new tank and switch everything over, or should I not panic yet? I don't want to chance putting fish in here whenever the tank is ready if this problem persists and I don't know the cause. Help!
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This is a question for an expert!


SBS, waterdrop, OM47...


Could it be related to proteins?
 
Like that little video of shaking the tank water, lol. Very good diagnostic aid. Yes, I think the foam may indeed be due to proteins and there could be plenty of them in there with used equipment. I agree with fluttermoth that you might want to dose down at 2 or 3ppm for now and see what happens.

Once this fishless cycle proceeds along and begins producing a lot of nitrate(NO3) then you might kill two birds with one stone and do some total water changes and even a gentle filter clean. I would hope this would help remove proteins and nitrates and that the progress of the fishless cycle would then bounce back in a day or so and do better in that ending phase, while at the same time better preparing the tank to have fewer proteins for the first stocking of fish.

From your writing I think you are worrying about details too much (although it makes sense to be worried about the foam) and will find that week-long trends in your test results are a better thing to use to make judgements.

By the way, the Ace bottle looks right to me too - I've stopped in some Ace stores and familiarized myself with those bottles and that picture looks right.

~~waterdrop~~
 
Like that little video of shaking the tank water, lol. Very good diagnostic aid. Yes, I think the foam may indeed be due to proteins and there could be plenty of them in there with used equipment. I agree with fluttermoth that you might want to dose down at 2 or 3ppm for now and see what happens.

Once this fishless cycle proceeds along and begins producing a lot of nitrate(NO3) then you might kill two birds with one stone and do some total water changes and even a gentle filter clean. I would hope this would help remove proteins and nitrates and that the progress of the fishless cycle would then bounce back in a day or so and do better in that ending phase, while at the same time better preparing the tank to have fewer proteins for the first stocking of fish.

From your writing I think you are worrying about details too much (although it makes sense to be worried about the foam) and will find that week-long trends in your test results are a better thing to use to make judgements.

By the way, the Ace bottle looks right to me too - I've stopped in some Ace stores and familiarized myself with those bottles and that picture looks right.

~~waterdrop~~


You all are awesome. Thank you! I did do a pwc and the ammo now is at about 2 and most of the foam did dissipate as seen in the photos above. I checked this morning and it looks about the same as it did last night after the pwc. Also I had a blanket covering the whole tank and cover and thought maybe somehow heat/oxygen was getting trapped in there, so I removed the blanket and just taped some black plastic garbage bags over the glass. I also turned off the air stone for now since the new filter is connected to the air pump as well and should produce enough oxygen, I just want to see if turning off the air stone has any effect. I'll continue to test levels and see what happens. I also did email the company from which I bought the filter to ask if they thought their sponge could be causing the foam, so we'll see what they say. Thanks everyone!

 
Well I receievd a reply from the company where I purchased the active sponge filter; doesn't sound very promising: :sad:

My initial email:
"Hi, I received a 3" active sponge cube filter on Saturday and installed it in my 12 gal tank to try to help cycle it (fishless, using pure ammo). I started noticing a drop in ammo and nitrates right away (thanks!) but no nitrites, but I'm optimistic the sponge will help my cycle. But a couple of days later I noticed a large amount of what looks like foam/suds on the top of my tank (pic attached). The suds are mostly on the right side where the water comes back out from the filter (I have the filter more on the left side where the filter intake tube is) and I also have an air stone, Could this be from the filter, proteins or something in it? I didn't wash anything in the tank, didn't put anything new in the tank, didn't even put my hands in the tank, so I don't think soap or anything got in. The only new thing I can think of is the filter. Before I panic and buy a new tank in case something did get in that I am unaware of, could this just be a symptom of the new filter (I'm running it with the filter that came with the tank as well). If you need further info please let me know. Thanks for your help."


And the reply:
"Hi, Sorry, but I've never seen that before and do not know why you have bubbles. There were no bubbles in the tank we removed it from and the fish in that tank looked fine."

:blink: :crazy: :shout:
 
Not sure if the pwc or/and turning off the air stone helped but the foam/suds have subsided. There are still a small amount of bubbles on the surface.It looks like the bubbles are forming when the water is poured back into the tank from the tank's filter then the bubbles are pushed to the opposite side due to the current and then they become smaller and get whiter. But it isn't the whole top of the tank like it was the other night, but some of it still looks suspiciously white like foam or suds and when I scoop some up onto my fingers it doesn't dissolve or pop. When I get home tonight I'll post an updated pic.

I also tested levels again last night:
Ammo still at 2-3 ppm
Ph 7.6+++ (dark blue, off chart)
High range ph: about 7.8, a little hard to tell, depending on how I looked at the tube it was between 7.4 and 7.8
NitrItes: 0
NitrAtes: still 5

If after 20 hours of adding the sponge filter nitrates were showing and the ammo went down to 0.5 from about 2, shouldn't the ammo be continuing to drop and the nitrates rising? Why isn't this happening? :angry:

I also tried to smell the foam the other night in case it was detergent or something but it has no smell at all.
 

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