My 6 New Black Corys (pics)

[jollysue]

You will have to email this information via private emails.

There is no dispute. The information I gave you is accurate regarding the Venezuelans, C. aeneus Blacks and C. schultzei Blacks. C. aeneus black and C. schultzei black are the same fish. C. Venezuelanus is not black. Although one variation is called "the black Venezuelan", it is not black as the ones we are discussing here. It has a reddish or orangy shoulder. I posted the pics and links for you to PlanetCatfish. My post was no doubt reviewed by Ian Fuller and others for accuracy, or I would have heard. There is confusion by those who don't know regarding ID's, but the information I posted recently in rocknurworld2006's thread was accurate. I believe Sp00ky would agree.

I would take care buying fish called blacks that are ID'd as C. Venezuelanus without a visual ID or warrantee by a respected hobbyist, unless you don't mind getting the Venezuelan and not the blacks.

This is where I offered and then did give the primary particulars regarding these fish. here

Sellers will label fish whatever will get the best price. Spooky is not among that group. He makes efforts to be accurate. The fish he is selling I am confidant are Blacks whether called aeneus or schultzei and are bred by respected hobbyists.

 

[drewry]

hi jollysue

i would agree with that i was 100% sure they were C. schultzei but just under the name C. aeneus black but with all the descoutions about them and people discusing 3 differnt names it gets confusing as im still pretty mutch a novice and learning every day
im takeing in information every day and with all the differnt speices im collecting every bit of information is a bonus.
as i can gather the C. schultzei and C. aeneus black is the same fish and C. Venezuelanus is another speices alltogether from Venezuela and also from Colombia am i on the right track here if not feel free to correct me

 

[drewry]

Okay, thanks.

I've searched for 'spooky' and it come up with about seven people with the username 'spooky'. Is his username just 'spooky' (because this member has zero posts) or has the username got some numbers after?

yeah its just spooky m8

 

[jollysue]

hi jollysue

i would agree with that i was 100% sure they were C. schultzei but just under the name C. aeneus black but with all the descoutions about them and people discusing 3 differnt names it gets confusing as im still pretty mutch a novice and learning every day
im takeing in information every day and with all the differnt speices im collecting every bit of information is a bonus.
as i can gather the C. schultzei and C. aeneus black is the same fish and C. Venezuelanus is another speices alltogether from Venezuela and also from Colombia am i on the right track here if not feel free to correct me

Yeah! Me too. Always something new to learn.

You're easy. LOL

 

[Cory_Dad]

I don't know about you guys but I'm getting pretty frustrated and confused with all this 'vagueness' with what is being sold/purchased. It certainly seems to be 'buyer beware' out on the streets.

I don't know if the vendors are intentionally mis-labeling the Corys or if they just don't know (or care).

On the other hand, I suppose for the general public it probably doesn't matter what the fish are called.

Where am I going with this? Not sure except that it helps to have a forum like this where we can help each other out especially when it comes to identifying 'solid' sources for our purchases (like Frank?, which helps me not here in Canada).

Maybe I'm just taking this whole thing too seriously.

 

[jollysue]

It really is a mess. More species are being discovered constantly. It is a big deal to post a new species on some forums and in some study groups, so the search is on. It then takes forever to zero in on the classification--such as whether a particular fish is actually part of the C. aeneus family. Many fish that are ID now as C. aeneus--such as the blacks and the whole C. schultzei tribe and many many others--are being debated hotly by the big boys as to what they really are and should be classified as. So some call the blacks C. aeneus, which is technically correct, and some call them C. schultzei , which is in the view of some how they should be classified. DNA is now entering the the field and will be a new tool used to determine classification. Much is really arbitrary and classifications are not exact.

Next problem:
The South Americans that capture the fish like to label their work with the name that will bring the biggest price. Some species ID is entirely dependent on the location of the capture--such as with our elagans fish, CoryDad. So each stop along the way the id is confirmed as the most desirable. The ones who catch the fish, the ones who bag and ship the fish to the distributors, the distributor. My LPS says they label their fish what they buy them as: whatever the ones they buy from say they are. My best source right now for wild caught fish (who does ship to Canada and Frank is a great breeder who would probably ship to Canada) does his best I believe to ID his fish correctly. But even Ian Fuller won't ID my julii or my San Juans from the pictures.

Once passed from the source it is almost impossible often to confirm what they have if it is one of the ones like julii and trilineatus or bilineatus and napoensis.

And so now enters DNA.

 

[Cory_Dad]

Ya, and $10,000 per DNS sequence I'm sure not gonna go that route just quite yet.

I've seen you mention 'Ian' a number of times. Is he the Ian who wrote the book on Breding Corys? I tried to buy a copy but I can't seem to find anyone who's selling it.

As for shipping into Canada, I will have to keep that in mind. Right now I'm just 'getting comfortable' with fish keeping again and keeping what I have alive.

Thanks for the info,

 

[jollysue]

I have sent you a PM, Cory_Dad. BTW did you see Frank's last response to you in your ID thread?

 

[Cory_Dad]

Yes, I did, thank you.

Frank seems to agree that they are C. Napoensis.

My 'frustration' comment came from the fact that everyone seems to be in the same boat as myself when it comes to identification. A lot of 'looks', 'seems', 'could be'.

Being trained as a Computer Systems Analyst (or is it Anal-ist?) I tend to go overboard with details.

Cheers.

 

[drewry]

It really is a mess. More species are being discovered constantly. It is a big deal to post a new species on some forums and in some study groups, so the search is on. It then takes forever to zero in on the classification--such as whether a particular fish is actually part of the C. aeneus family. Many fish that are ID now as C. aeneus--such as the blacks and the whole C. schultzei tribe and many many others--are being debated hotly by the big boys as to what they really are and should be classified as. So some call the blacks C. aeneus, which is technically correct, and some call them C. schultzei , which is in the view of some how they should be classified. DNA is now entering the the field and will be a new tool used to determine classification. Much is really arbitrary and classifications are not exact.

Next problem:
The South Americans that capture the fish like to label their work with the name that will bring the biggest price. Some species ID is entirely dependent on the location of the capture--such as with our elagans fish, CoryDad. So each stop along the way the id is confirmed as the most desirable. The ones who catch the fish, the ones who bag and ship the fish to the distributors, the distributor. My LPS says they label their fish what they buy them as: whatever the ones they buy from say they are. My best source right now for wild caught fish (who does ship to Canada and Frank is a great breeder who would probably ship to Canada) does his best I believe to ID his fish correctly. But even Ian Fuller won't ID my julii or my San Juans from the pictures.

Once passed from the source it is almost impossible often to confirm what they have if it is one of the ones like julii and trilineatus or bilineatus and napoensis.

And so now enters DNA.

hi jollysue

its an intresting subject espetally when the science side of things come in to it . then theres the deispute side of things like cory-dad says thats when the money side of things come in to it with DNA .
some one is allways right iv read nearly every topic and discution by frank on this subject and learnd allot just from reading what hes wrote but iv never spoke to him direct but if he wants to pass his knollage on to some one who wants to learn then feel free frank im always willing to learn from the exsperts if ure in the uk frank and can sell me some corydoras that i dont have in my signiture please feel free to contact me as im always wanting more speices of corydoras

 

[jollysue]

drewry, Frank is in the States, but one of Frank's biggest sources for information on Corys is Ian Fuller. His ID is Coryman. He is the one who responded to rocknurworld's thread and said "Google it!" He is in the UK. He would be considered one of the premiere Cory experts in the world. Search his posts. In the UK and much of the States he is considered to be the final authority today on Corydoras.

His breeding record has just passed 101 species of Corydoras bred. By contrast mine is ten plus or minus probably even counting species variations such as long fin and albino. Frank's is somewhere around 57, I think. I can't find the thread right off hand. Frank is trying for an award this year.

So you can not only Google Ian Fuller and Coryman on the net, but Coryman on the Forum and learn lots.

Taxonomy is a man made classification system, with rules made by man. It is like mathmatics, perfect on paper. It is messy like life in the real world. (An example in math that is not a perfect example: a straight line is the shortest distance between two points. Is that straight through the earth or around the circumference?

I am sure that the DNA studies will be made by scientists to determine family connections for species ID's. Individual fish will sill be ID'd by looks and the overlaps in characteristics will still be a problem in IDs

Checking, it appears that Frank has rounded the bend on 45 species hatched and is headed for 50.