Moved Tank Help, Someone Gave Me This And I Am New To Salt

[wired_one]

hello all,

this forum was recommended by an acquaintance..i have done freshwater tanks for years, too easy, but recently things have become more challenging. a good friend of mines roommate decided he did not want his tank anymore and gave it to me. its 55 gal acrylic with a sock filter, a protein skimmer (that i finally got working right) and a sump pump that shoots the water back in via adjustable black tubes at the top back of the tank. my first dilemma was that unless these feeder tubes were pointed up to the top of the tank, if the power to the sump quit, it created a most awesome siphon which quickly filled up the plexi box the sump and skimmer are in, and would then overflow out on the floor.

but shooting the returning water to the top of the tank was counter productive, as the drain is at the top as well. i solved this by drilling small siphon break holes in the top of the return tubes. these holes are above the drain level, and now when the power goes out it does not overflow.

the guy i got this from did not tell me much. the tank came with live rocks, fish, crabs, several soft corals..

when i first set it up i was mis reading an old log book and set the salt level way high. i have since lowered it to 1.021 but not before killing some fish. and now the corals all look very unhappy. if i am to trust the poor system color chart ph test i think im at 8.2. i have a digital ph meter on the way, i think that will be more accurate.

as i said a lot of stuff died, now things seem better. the tank has sand at the base, and after a couple weeks i started seeing black stuff down in the sand. i tried to vacuum it up but whatever it is its dense as the sand, and instead of getting vacuumed up it just got more mixed in the sand. what is this black stuff, is it bad, and if so how do i get rid of it. i can post a pic of the black stuff in the sand before i disturbed it if that helps.

many thanks for any help i can get, i cant freaking wait to be dialed in on this stuff and really know what im doing.

wired

 

[Donya]

Don't vac the sand if it's fine sand. A pic would help ID what's going on with the black stuff. If there is growth in the sand it is nothing to worry about, just bacteria and/or algae establishing. How deep is the bed? If it's more than an inch or so, the main thing to watch for would be the formation of bubbles, which can indicate that the sand needs to be turned more (which would require a sand-sifting goby, conch, or similar critter to do properly - it's not relaly something to do by hand). If the sand is really coarse you can get debris stuck down there, but it usually won't be black and would come out pretty easily.

i have since lowered it to 1.021 but not before killing some fish.

What was it at before? 1.021 is rather low for a marine tank. Most systems are run at 1.025. Stores occasionally run at 1.020 or so to fend off fish diseases on new arrivals, but it's much better to keep the specific gravity higher than that long-term.

Also, what equipment are you using to measure the specific gravity? Have you calibrated the piece of equipment or do you know if it was calibrated before it reached you?

 

[wired_one]

to measure the salinity i am using a new red sea hydrometer plastic deal, the tank came with one but discovered it was not reading correctly. i found this out when i compared its readings at petco with theirs, it was off. i then bought a new one, and again we double tested and it was the same, so i now use that one. after each test i rinse it off with fresh water and hang it to dry.

when i first set it up i had no idea what was the correct level for salinity, so i looked in an old log book that came with and mistakenly discovered the number i was looking for was 28. well actually 28 was what i wanted, but i was not looking at the right measurement on the hydrometer..u know where im going. the guy i got the tank from ran it at 1.021 and petco told me they did same, so i assumed that was the correct level. assumed. so for fish, coral, crustations, yer saying normal should be 1.024?

i did vacuum up the sand, but will not in future. it did not help anyway. and i have seen bubbles forming under the sand, i used a dowel rod to stir it and get them to come up. so it is good to stir the sand yes?

so my corals have mostly died, and only a couple maybe three are still alive. i am guessing it is because i had the water too salty maybe? also using the dip test strips, it looked like my ph was low, so i added some superbuffer dhk, and i think it came up some but am not sure of my readings for testing. i have a digital test meter on the way. then i will know.

when i set this up i added aqueon water conditioner as recommended to make water safe. (my water is from small town in pacific northwest, only a little bit of chlorine when tested.). i used instant ocean for the salt mix.

along with the tank came some groovy mysterious stuff

kent essitiantal elements -- says add a cap full every two weeks, i did one today. continue?

kent liquid calicum --- got a ca test kit today, tested, was low, added some of this stuff. how often should this be used.

kent chroma plex-- food? says can put in three times a week, no idea

reef iodide -- no idea what its for

instant ocean natural nitrate reducer-- said it is better than sliced bread so put some in, good?

and two things of kent super buffer dkh which i understand is to raise the ph.

as of now the tank has..a large clarkii clown that came with, a large pajama cardinal, a little red and white ghobbi?, a fire shrimp ..all of which are still living and survived the ordeal of salt. i have also added three blue devil damsels, which are kick #16##### mean fun fish. their only mean to each other in my tank. and a couple big hermit crabs, that change shells all the time.

thanks thanks thanks

wired

ps question, i have a domain, can i host photos on it and hot link them here? thanks.

 

[Donya]

...I probably should not be up this late so I apologize in advance if this gets incoherent!

The black stuff in the sand in the pic looks fine. That's just bacterial growth, which is good. If bubbles form, poke at it until they're gone but don't totally turn the bed upside-down.

Sounds like you've got a bit of a dingbat petstore employee there. I would do a lot of reading on the web before trusting the guys at a place like that. Every now and then you get lucky and find a real expert, but the vast majority really don't know what they're doing with marine. The experts tend to be at specialty fish shops.

There are two main reasons why stores will run their tanks' specific gravity low: (1) not wanting to use extra salt out of cheapness and (2) ich has a at lower salinities so new arrivals are less likely to bomb everybody else in the tanks (a serious issue for most petcos since hte tanks are usually inter-connected). Neither of these are particularly good reasons to keep the sg low long-term, they're just practicalities for the store.

yer saying normal should be 1.024?

Yes. That's right in the middle where basically all marine animals in the trade are happy with it. You can set up tanks that run low, like if you are doing a coastal biotope, but the animals you'd be looking at for something like that are pretty specific and limited. When you start with a grab bag of animals you should really try to keep it in the happy middle region like at 1.024.

so it is good to stir the sand yes?

Not really - you shouldn't have to is the main thing. The point of cleanup crew inverts is that they should maintain the sand - or a sand-sifting fish if one exists. If you're having to poke at the sand yourself to stop bubbles, the ecosystem is not in balance.

Keep poking periodically for the moment if bubbles show up, but just bear in mind that it's a role that some other animal should fill in the future for the tank. It's better to make sure everything is good and stable though before adding anything new. Once the tank looks stable then you'll probably want a conch or sand-sifting goby.

when i set this up i added aqueon water conditioner as recommended to make water safe. (my water is from small town in pacific northwest, only a little bit of chlorine when tested.). i used instant ocean for the salt mix.

Test your tap's KH and get it checked for metals too. It needs to be very low or zero on copper (and use a chellating agent just to be safe - a conditioner that says "binds metals" or something similar on it) and have <2dKH to be used long-term. If your KH is higher, then you are going to have KH and pH problems down the line and will need to look into getting RO or RODI. I'm also an Instand Ocean user and my tap quality eventually declined to the point where I had to make the switch and buy an RODI unit. You can also get RO water from shops, but with a big tank it can get impractical unless you have the space to store a lot of jugs.

so my corals have mostly died, and only a couple maybe three are still alive. i am guessing it is because i had the water too salty maybe? also using the dip test strips, it looked like my ph was low, so i added some superbuffer dhk, and i think it came up some but am not sure of my readings for testing. i have a digital test meter on the way. then i will know.

Unlikely that it was the salinity...could have been stress or something else going off. Are you running carbon? If not I would get some in there. Somtimes if one thing dies or gets upset it will release toxins that upset other things and carbon goes a long way to removing that sort of stuff.

For tests you really want liquid test kits - or the digital tester in the case of pH. Strips are notoriously inaccurate and also easily contaminated by ambient moisture. Liquid KH kits are much more reliable than strip versions.

kent essitiantal elements -- says add a cap full every two weeks, i did one today. continue?

No no no! Put that stuff away for now. I use that stuff reulgarly, but it is not something to be just slopped about without good reason to do so. The vast majority of tanks have no need for it - I only use it in tanks where I see clear evidence of trace elements being depleted really rapidly. You can easily cause more problems than you'd solve by adding a general supplement like that if you don't know how your system is behaving. It would be different if you could test for all the stuff in the bottle, but the kits just don't exist so it's a very tricky thing to do.

kent liquid calicum --- got a ca test kit today, tested, was low, added some of this stuff. how often should this be used.

Keep testing and tweak daily until it gets where it belongs. I don't recall what the dosage is for that, but just add what it says weekly or daily until it tests right. Don't add more frequently than it says and don't dump it in near any inverts either.

kent chroma plex-- food? says can put in three times a week, no idea

Filter feeder food. Do you have any obvious, big filter feeders in the tank like Bivalves (clams, scallops), big fan worms, or non-photosynthetic corals? If not, then you can leave it unused for now. Filter feeder foods can add a LOT of waste to the water when overused and most tanks don't need them at all.

reef iodide -- no idea what its for

Not needed for the vast majority of tanks. If you are curious, get a test kit for iodide and see where it's at. It can help growth of some algaes but it can help both the good and bad. Effects on other organisms are hit and miss and poorly understood in general.

instant ocean natural nitrate reducer-- said it is better than sliced bread so put some in, good?

I've never heard of this stuff. It sounds way too good to be legit though lol. I'll have to look it up.

and two things of kent super buffer dkh which i understand is to raise the ph.

Be very careful with those if you're just using strips to test KH. You may not need them if the salt mix is good and you don't have coral growth pulling carbonates out rapidly. If your KH falls below 8dKH according to a liquid kit, then add in small amounts slowly (and again not near inverts) to get it back in the 8-12dKH range.

i have also added three blue devil damsels, which are kick #16##### mean fun fish.

These might have to be split up eventually unless you are lucky. Keep an eye on them; some tanks keep damsel groups successfully but others end up as damsel wars. Damsels and clowns can have similar issues as they are related. I've never kept blue devils so I don't know what their social habits are like, but a lot of damsels will be fine for a while and then start ripping on each other. I agree though that they are great fun - I've got three damsels of other types, but all in different tanks.

and a couple big hermit crabs, that change shells all the time.

Got pics of these? I'm not sure what big means...I've got one "big" hermit that's grapefruit sized lol. If you had one of those I'm sure you'd have no sand bubbles since they stir it like crazy. It would be good to ID the species on those hermits to determine how big they'll get and whether there are any things they'd be incompatible with.

ps question, i have a domain, can i host photos on it and hot link them here? thanks.

Yep. You use the IMG tags with the "insert image" button and then just put the URL between them. It's a little square thing with a tree picture (...I think it's a tree anyway!).

 

[wired_one]

ok black stuff in sand good, right on i will not attack it anymore. lacking pet store employee? lol everyone in this town is lacking, the police, the judges, the people who cut yer hair, pump yer gas....this place is bizarre. i moved here from civilization..portland oregon..so it does not come as a surprise when one of the locals comes up short. i mean, seriously, every time i go there and look at the fish there are dead fish in several tanks. and they just leave them there. der.

and you should have seen the blank look i got when i said protein skimmer. i have a learning to protein skimmer story if interested.

in near future i will get the salinity up to 1.024.

i am not running carbon, i was giving the impression it was not necessary as i was running a protein skimmer, is that incorrect? i have a tub of carbon i use to refill the cartridge in my fresh water tanks filter system, i could probably use some of that in this tank, maybe add it somewhere down where the sump is or where the water falls into the sock filter maybe.

i do have a liquid ph test that came with the tank and i was able to use it today as i found the color chart that was not with the test, and it gave me a more accurate reading than the dip strip did. after i used that to test ph, and for the calcium test too after i rinsed them out with tap water and set up to dry. is that good enough for a reasonably good test next time, or should i use alcohol to clean them or something?

once i get the calcium to is proper level, will it not deplete over time and need replenishing?

the blue devils although aggressive with each other are good at getting out of the way, and they are cool smart fish. then love to shack up back in the rocks, and when they do they turn dark purple and vanish. the big clown swims by once in a while and they get out of the way. but he has never nipped at them, but he does nip the pajama cardinal once in a while. the cardinal could care less, he just stares. the clown is probably like "quit staring at me!!!".

lol a big hermit crab to me is shell the size of a half dollar. i have one that big, one a little smaller and a tiny guy about an inch long shell. tomorrow i will set aside space for pics on my web site and upload some and post.

Donya you are cool as they come, and i so appreciate conversing with someone who knows how to answer my questions. i may master this yet.

thanks miss, big smile

 

[wired_one]

testing

 

[Donya]

and you should have seen the blank look i got when i said protein skimmer. i have a learning to protein skimmer story if interested.

Do tell

i am not running carbon, i was giving the impression it was not necessary as i was running a protein skimmer, is that incorrect? i have a tub of carbon i use to refill the cartridge in my fresh water tanks filter system, i could probably use some of that in this tank, maybe add it somewhere down where the sump is or where the water falls into the sock filter maybe.

A lot of people run both on this size tank, although if you have a really effective skimmer then the carbon's impact could be pretty small. Obviously by the time you go up to one of those person-sized skimmers with a really huge tank, then carbon becomes sort of pointless because of the sheer volume you'd need per unit time - but then toxins are also less of a worry because of the water volume. In this case I mainly recommend it as an additional short-term safety precaution since it's not totally clear what took out the corals or what they might have released into the water (I didn't see which types died...sorry if I missed it).

i do have a liquid ph test that came with the tank and i was able to use it today as i found the color chart that was not with the test, and it gave me a more accurate reading than the dip strip did. after i used that to test ph, and for the calcium test too after i rinsed them out with tap water and set up to dry. is that good enough for a reasonably good test next time, or should i use alcohol to clean them or something?

I usually just use tap water, give them a good shake to fling out the droplets, and then dry the tubes upside-down. Sometimes they get caked with annoying deposits though (saltwater ammonia tests can be really annoying for this) and then you just have to throw stuff at them until something dissolves it. Vinegar is a first pick of mine for that since it seems like a lot of deposits are carbonates, although it hasn't worked on all of the odd deposits I've gotten over time. In those cases I've just had to take a cleaning brush to them.

once i get the calcium to is proper level, will it not deplete over time and need replenishing?

It might or might not. A lot of tanks run just fine without calcium and alkalinity supplements since the sand and rock are CaCO3 and keep things balanced (which sometimes leads to the need for sand top-offs in tanks that have been around for a large number of years). Once you get it where it needs to be, give it another test a few days later and see if it has changed. Usually you only see noticeable dips over a few days when corals, snails, or other CaCO3-making animals are going really crazy with growth. That said though, I have to throw calc+alk supplements at one of my tanks daily because of how much growth is going on in it, so it can definitely happen that it gets sucked out way too fast for the rock and sand to help out. However, you can easily add too much of those kinds of supplements, so it's just a good idea to figure out the minimum needed.

the cardinal could care less, he just stares.

PJ cardinals are great. Cardinals in general seem like a great combination with damsels (and clowns too). Each of my damsel tanks has one.

i may master this yet.

You're already off to a good start!

 

[wired_one]

i see, well i like your thinking while i got my tank in unknown land maybe i throw some carbon in for a while, i can put some in the last tube coming from the drain just as it falls into the sock filter. or is it necessary for the water to rush over it as such. perhaps i can just put some down in the box with the sump and protein skimmer? speaking of which..


ok shortish version. i got this tank from a guy in portland or, it was working and i observed it. i then drove it three hours south to slacktown usa and set it all up and things looked like they were working. he had told me the skimmer would get scummy in the cup and to clean it out, and i did every couple three days. then one day i thought u know the area right below the cup is scummy too, prolly the whole thing is. so i unplugged it, took it out in the driveway, and blasted it with my hose and spray attachment, in this port, down this tube, up that...and scum came out from everywhere. i did get the top clean also where the cup sits on it.

so when all done i took it back put it back where it goes, plugged it in, and bam...its foaming like crazy, and running over the top of the cup and all down the side back into the water. what the...this starts me freaking out, i cant figure out why is so spastic. then i looked and found a lovely thread on some message board and a fellow having similar trouble. they told him turn his down, o there is a control?? so i funmbeled around and eventually found a knob, and by turning it way down to almost off, the skimmer started working better putting off less foam, but it was still running over the top a little, but now the foam was sticking to the outside of the cup. the last think i did to get that to stop, was i noticed there are four holes in the top of the cup, and two of them were plugged. when i cleared them it quit overflowing and now is working right.

then i realized what had happened, it was used for years, and the people who had it before me just kept cranking up the skimmer as it got dirtier and dirtier. so it was cranked up to max when i blasted all the scum out of it.

so glad its working now. sigh. o and grapefruit sized crab is freaking wow. i bet he turns the sand, and eats fish!!!

 

[wired_one]

two questions, can i put the heaters down in the box with the soc filter skimmer and sump, that would be nice then would not have to look at them. if moved will they be as effective? also i heard of growing seaweed or similar in that box, is that a good thing to do?

last night i gave the fish some brine shrimp frozen..i usually rub said chunk and get as many as possible to float free, but there is always a slimy gob that hangs together at the end. last night the blue devils and the clarkii clown were playing football with it. the clown would grab it and take it to the back of the tank, then a damsel would steal it and bring it back to the front. back and forth it went was quite entertaining.

 

[Donya]

then i realized what had happened, it was used for years, and the people who had it before me just kept cranking up the skimmer as it got dirtier and dirtier.

Oh lord LOL. I've even had a dinkly little nano skimmer make a water rocket on me a couple times, so that must've been pretty incredible with a bigger one.

two questions, can i put the heaters down in the box with the soc filter skimmer and sump, that would be nice then would not have to look at them. if moved will they be as effective?

Should be fine down there. Sumps are good places for things like that. I've never heard of anybody complaining that they don't heat as effectively in that configuration.

also i heard of growing seaweed or similar in that box, is that a good thing to do?

It helps a lot with nutrient export. Most people grow Chaetomorpha in sumps, although some use Caulerpa - but Caulerpa can be finicky, so I woudn't recommend it in this case. Chaeto is by far the hardier and more reliable one to use even if it looks more like some weird kind of pasta than the typical imagae of seaweed.

ast night i gave the fish some brine shrimp frozen..i usually rub said chunk and get as many as possible to float free, but there is always a slimy gob that hangs together at the end.

What I do with frozen food is put some tank water in a cup (one of my dedicated aquarium tupperwares), dump the frozen cubes in for a while, and then poor it all out into a brineshrimp net to catch the actual food bits. The bit of a wash cuts down a lot on phosphates. You won't see much of it from just a few cubes, but day after day for several weeks and you are likely to see some phosphate issues without washing the cubes unless they are some sort of miracle phosphate-free type that I have never found.

 

[wired_one]

What I do with frozen food is put some tank water in a cup (one of my dedicated aquarium tupperwares), dump the frozen cubes in for a while, and then poor it all out into a brineshrimp net to catch the actual food bits. The bit of a wash cuts down a lot on phosphates. You won't see much of it from just a few cubes, but day after day for several weeks and you are likely to see some phosphate issues without washing the cubes unless they are some sort of miracle phosphate-free type that I have never found.

oo i did not realize the stuff their frozen in is bad, i will pre melt as described then net them out before feeding to fish. thanks for the suggestion. and i am moving the heaters, nice. since the crustations are doing fine, i got an emerald crab today hope he does well. i was thinking i have some instant ocean fresh mixed in a bucket that has sat for three days, if i put an air stone and heater in it, is it possible that if i put my ailing corals in it they might recover?

also i tried to send u a private message but said i cannot, is this a privilege i have to wait for or something?

 

[Donya]

i was thinking i have some instant ocean fresh mixed in a bucket that has sat for three days, if i put an air stone and heater in it, is it possible that if i put my ailing corals in it they might recover?

What kind of corals are having trouble?

Usually it's not a good idea to isolate a coral in an unfiltered environment unless it looks like it's about to be dead (in which case it's more damage management on the main tank). It depends on the type of coral and type of damage though.

also i tried to send u a private message but said i cannot, is this a privilege i have to wait for or something?

My recollection is that there is a minimum post count, but I can't remember what it is. I just checked your account settings and didn't see anything that would be forbidding it at any rate.

 

[wired_one]

er about to be dead? lol if i could tell that..i do not have a pic handy, the two i am concerned about are as such, they are both like little umm brown shoots or stems, short about an inch long or less, when they were happy the tops opened up in kind of flat little brown flowers i guess. they have not opened in a while now. the other coral is similar type, but its flowers were green. now they both look small and like withered. and as i say they have not opened in a while. i can get a pic posted tomorrow if my description is lacking.

i was reading about ro water, and rodi, and looks like there are systems that hook up to the tank, and systems that i put on my sink to crank out said water. do you have a preference on which system? and in such systems, if they are filtering out bad stuff, do they need to be er cleaned, or changed or something after some use?

i put my heaters down below and it works fine, temp even went up a degree, go figure.

 

[wired_one]

got my first emerald crab yesterday from a local pet store, and think i over paid based on what i see them for online. but i have never bought a fish online, anyone, experiences with buying fish and such online, can anyone recommend a good site?

got my first emerald crab yesterday from a local pet store, and think i over paid based on what i see them for online. but i have never bought a fish online, anyone, experiences with buying fish and such online, can anyone recommend a good site?

 

[Donya]

er about to be dead? lol if i could tell that..i do not have a pic handy, the two i am concerned about are as such, they are both like little umm brown shoots or stems, short about an inch long or less, when they were happy the tops opened up in kind of flat little brown flowers i guess. they have not opened in a while now. the other coral is similar type, but its flowers were green. now they both look small and like withered. and as i say they have not opened in a while. i can get a pic posted tomorrow if my description is lacking.

Sounds like Zoanthids, in which case they might just be sulking. They will often close when stressed and reopen later. Even when dying, Zoanthids don't usually do so in a catastrophic way like some other corals. LPS corals that die suddenly or become diseased will often start to turn into sludge, with stringy bits that can blow about and get on other corals. Similarly some softies can go to sludge on you pretty fast (Xenia is bad for that if it goes), but I've never seen a Zoanthid do so.

got my first emerald crab yesterday from a local pet store, and think i over paid based on what i see them for online. but i have never bought a fish online, anyone, experiences with buying fish and such online, can anyone recommend a good site?

You're always going to have a slightly higher price in-store. In my current area, a crab goes for anywhere from $5-16 depending on the size, color, and whether they're on special offer or something. It's the better way to buy from a good store most times because you can see the stock before you get it. You also pay one heck of a shipping fee with most places online if you want to make sure the animals get to you alive ($20+ on most sites), and you have to order a lot of animals at once to offset that - which in turn can cause temporary overstocking symptoms once those animals hit your tank. It's better to add things slowly over time than all in a lump. And then with shipping you have to put up with the courier, which means a small chance of the box being sat on by an elephant and run through with a giant metal spike to make sure all the water drains out (this based on a real events I had to deal with in the past as a seller).

i was reading about ro water, and rodi, and looks like there are systems that hook up to the tank, and systems that i put on my sink to crank out said water. do you have a preference on which system? and in such systems, if they are filtering out bad stuff, do they need to be er cleaned, or changed or something after some use?

This is the one I use and it works great:

http/www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12093

The only hitch was that I had to get a different sink attachment than the one it came with. My faucet is a piece of sharp nasty junk and it stripped the plastic insert almost immediately and shot it out like a rocket. On a better faucet that shouldn't happen - the threading on the inside of mine is just a disaster. Anyway, I was able to get a metal replacement at Home Depot for a buck or two so that it can't shoot out. You leave the attachment on and then connect and disconnect the unit as needed, so I can still use the sink as a sink. Sometimes people like to install a different type of shutoff valve since regular faucet handles don't work so great to shut it off, but it hasn't been a problem for me as long as I disconnect the unit when I'm done. As far as how I picked it...I was offered a good deal on it by a local shop lol. I didn't do a whole lot of comparing different makes and stuff so I can't say that this one is the best or anything, just that it has done the job for me.

As far as cleaning, you need to replace the filter components periodically. The membrane should last you ages (the shop I got mine from has used the same membrane on an identical unit for years and years with good maintenance) but the mechanical filter and DI bit will need to be replaced periodically. The guideline I was given is that when the flow starts to cut out a lot (assuming tap pressure is still ok) and the TDS starts to creep up, it's time to change the non-membrane bits.