More coloration chat…

[Magnum Man]

In the color enhancement food thread, we were talking about the light, and it’s effects on blues and greens, but I just noticed, one of my “super red” pleco’s swimming along, under my hanging pots near the surface of it’s tank ( there are 2 full length aquarium LED lights over this tank, so it’s quite bright ), but being in the shadow of the hanging pots, the fish appeared black, as soon as it got out of the shadow, back to its orange coloration… again, this tank is quite bright, so the shadow, is still well lit… so a good percentage of the red / orange color on these fish appears to be because of the light as well… suspect the fish is actually a brown, and something in it’s skin shines orange in the direct light…

Would suspect that as much of the color of our fish, is related to light, as it is diet…

Not that fish don’t lose color, but that the loss of color, is likely related to the fish’s ability to reflect the light in those spectrums…

So color enhancing, is probably very limited, by ingredient and some of these related algae’s may actually be doing nothing, or may just be adding to the fishes health and wellbeing, which in turn, are enhancing their color???

Thoughts???

 

[Magnum Man]

So, as I mentioned on the other thread, I fed for the 1st time last night, Bug Bites color enhancement formula food… I think my fish are already exhibiting excellent color, from a varied diet, of which, regular Bug Bites, were included, so I will continue feeding my varied diet, but with the substitution of the color enhancement, over the regular Bug Bites into the regular rotation, and see if I notice any “more” coloration…
I would suspect, that I won’t see a difference, as I doubt the additional color algae in the food is going to effect the fish’s health and wellbeing… doing so, if I notice a difference, then it’s likely directly related to the color enhancement addition

 

[GaryE]

I could see a difference in boesemani rainbows through feeding astaxanthin. Any colours need light to be seen though, and I'm sure someone playing with the spectrum on a bluetooth light could get interesting effects.

A lot of fish have control over their colour cells - the chromatophores, and can communicate with them. Too many of us have seen the dominated fish with nowhere to go who loses all colour to show it really really wants to get along with a tougher individual. We may also have seen what happens when the alpha is removed, and the dominated fish explode with colour.

Reflection is camouflage where the sun hits the ripples, and a lot of open water fish are very reflective, either in silver or blue. I don't think there's anything (other than lighting) we can do to enhance those colours. That's not diet ingredients, but health.

I'm intrigued by the issue of our imperfect human eyes. Are the colours we see the colours fish see? Are there infrared colours we are blind to in some of the fish we think are gray? Is what we see what they are in their own world?

So colour food. I think it works with red, and not with anything else. It's well marketed, and because of red, not deceptive. It can work. But we also have a hobby that adds aloe vera to water treatments, even though it's useless. I'm surprised they don't sell wrinkle cream for fish. If they could, they would.

 

[MaloK]

The three principal color layers are Yellow, Red and Black. then there is the Iridocyte layer that contains Blue and Yellow guanophores... There are also layers modifiers at play.

The iridocyte layer that is responsible for their iridescent colors. These cells are packed with crystals of guanine, a waste product that the body breaks down from proteins.

The way the guanine crystals are arranged within the iridocyte affects how light interacts with them, causing the brilliant and sometimes shifting colors we see on fish.

Unlike pigments, which absorb certain wavelengths of light and reflect others, iridocytes use a phenomenon called light diffraction to create iridescence.

No wonder why it's very difficult to photograph with only one light source.

 

[gwand]

As I understand it tropical freshwater fish likely have a wider range of color vision than we do! They evolved to see the colors in their surroundings.
Water filters out reds as depth increases, so fish living in deeper waters are attuned to the dominant colors in their environment - blues and greens.
Some species can see UV light, which helps them see contrasts and markings on other fish or prey that we wouldn't notice.
In fish evolved to living in shallow water some fish can see reds and oranges too.

 

[GaryE]

Too many humans think we are perfection, and what we see is what there is. We're actually pretty limited compared to a lot of fish. I've looked at software simulations of what different species may see, and they live in a spectacular world.

Post sinus surgery here, I'm amused by what I can smell. I was okay before the surgery, but people made jokes about how I could tell them about farms and roadside restaurants before we'd driven close enough to see them when I was a kid. I'd lost that with time. Some elements seem to have reappeared, and it can only get better as I heal more (I hope). But I'm as sensitive as a rock compared to my dog.
My wife has never gotten her sense of smell back after chemo, and I'm the family nose. I wonder if Mabel the Dog thinks we're smell stupid?

As for the fish, well,I don't even have a lateral line. I don't think they can take me seriously. I'm not even worth flashing chromatophores at.

 

[Magnum Man]

I have to admit, I’m getting skeptical, about color enhancing foods, for most uses…

I am starting to see some more color, here and there, on various fish, but those are all still maturing fish they may be coloring up, just from a healthy varied diet, and maturing 3 months older I’m not in a position, to take 2 same age fish, in a divided tank, and feed one color enhanced food, and feed the other a regular variety
MyTin Foils seem to be getting redder fins, but at 7-10 inches, are just getting mature, so that may be as much age related, as color enhancing related… same situation with my African tetras, that are getting more colorful

20 years ago, I was able to get more color, on my big red breasted pacu, when I started feeding him carrots, instead of color pellets, but even that may have been attributed to better health feeding him carrots instead of pellets???

 

[gwand]

I think you may be right. The Tetra coloring foods have red, blue and yellow lake dyes. You would think it would do something. Those are FDA approved dyes for human consumption. However I never fed my kids candies which were made with those artificial dyes. Carrots are a better alternative.

 

[GaryE]

I wonder. In early literature about fish, writers suggest using all sorts of red things in food. I have thought that maybe there was some sympathetic magic thinking at work.
I know I can change the colours on mature Melanotania boesemani, but they are Lake Aytinjo boesemani, not the insipid turnip coloured things we usually see in stores. There is a lot of orange to begin with, and it's just intensified. It was when I ran out of "the good stuff" that I saw the change to a slightly paler orange.
On most other fish, I don't see enormous differences. Maybe I fool myself by wanting to see changes in other fish.

 

[Magnum Man]

Sorry caffeine again today… I’m also starting to wonder if some of the fish food additives might be also coloring the water???, or negatively effecting the micro environment of our tanks??? do the fish ingest all the ingredients??? Obviously not, as they still pass wastes… are these ingredients water soluble??? And are those ingredients natural, or really ok for the fish in concentrations as we slowly water change them out???

I manage a food ingredient manufacturing plant.. and I’m personally concerned with “dioxides” in our foods… titanium dioxide is used as a whitening agent in paint, but it’s also approved for use in foods ( I think coffee whiteners are one of the products I’ve seen it most used ) when that is added to a product, it can’t be removed from the stainless steel, equipment it’s made on / in, without manual rubbing… no cleaning chemical allowed in a food plant will remove the white film that remains… what is that doing to our insides??? silicon dioxide is used as an anti caking agent in a lot of dry foods, and that doesn’t stick to the stainless surfaces, but is not water soluble, so takes numerous rinses to get it fully out of the process rooms… just wondering if there are ingredients such as these in our fish foods, and how are they are effecting our micro environments in the long run???

 

[Magnum Man]

I looked this morning, at 2 different processed food I feed currently, and I’d didn’t see any dioxides, but as @gwand … mentioned above the Hikari vibra bites has several artificial colors… are these there for fish coloration, or for our visual benefit ( my grape soda, doesn’t need to be so purple that it effects the color of my wastes ) to taste like grape… we’ve gone so far down that rabbit hole, for our visual stimulation, that how much of that stuff is needed in our foods, and it’s not making me turn purple, do we think it will help the fish to turn purple??? Do we think neon red food, is more palatable to the fish than brown extruded squiggles???

 

[GaryE]

It depends on the fish foods, but flake and pellet are processed foods, and we have to think about that. I just cleaned out 2 25 gallon tanks, down to the glass. When I was rinsing the sand, I realized I was finding very few snails. At most, there were 5 per tank - ramshorns. In the past, cleaning tanks was a sad day for dozens and dozens of snails.
So why did I have so few?
I realized that I hadn't fed flake or pellets to either of those tanks since Spring. Once live food became available, that's what the fish I had moved out them got. Without the excess nutrients from the food, the snail population was very much under control.
I'm sure fish food plays a huge role in the cycle, the water chemistry, algae - the whole system. I've never seen food colouring the water, but I also do large-ish water changes regularly.
A few years ago there was an aquarist who owned an 'all natural' fish food startup who was on most forums and who really denounced preservatives as murdering fish. Maybe they do have an effect, but the marketing scaremongering was kind of evident once you made the connection.
I think a lot of the food colouring is for us. I bought a pound of brine shrimp flakes a few years back, and they came in with an unshrimplike colour - a vibrant pink/orange that looked like the lady at the grocery checkout's hair colouring. That was for us, misjudged. I've seen pellets that looked like bags of jellybeans. If you dye it really green, they'll think it's vegetables...

 

[gwand]

Here some facts I found on the topic.

These are all colors approved for use in food by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and are found in fish food.

• Blue 2 Lake: This is an aluminum lake version of Blue 2 dye. Aluminum lakes are basically dyes that are made insoluble by combining them with aluminum. This makes them more stable and better suited for use in non-watery foods. There is some debate about the safety of Blue 2, with some studies raising concerns.
• Yellow 5 Lake: This is another lake color, derived from Yellow 5 dye. Yellow 5 is one of the most common food colorings and is generally considered safe.
• Red 3: This is a red dye directly added to food without being part of a lake. Red 3 is also generally recognized as safe by the FDA.
• Yellow 6 Lake: Similar to Yellow 5 Lake, this is a lake version of Yellow 6 dye. Yellow 6 is another widely used food coloring considered safe by the FDA.

In the context of food coloring, "lake" refers to a type of coloring made with a dye that's been attached to a metal salt, usually aluminum. This process makes the dye insoluble, meaning it won't dissolve in water. Here's why that's important for food coloring:

• Stability: Regular dyes can bleed or fade in food, especially in things with moisture. By becoming insoluble, lake colors become more stable and stay consistent in the food.
• Better suited for non-watery foods: Since they don't dissolve in water, lake colors can be used effectively in things like candies, fats, and oils where regular dyes wouldn't work well.

However, some fish food uses natural dyes, such as red: beet extract, paparika, orange: carrots,Yellow: Saffron, annatto seeds, turmeric, Green: Chlorophyll (from leafy greens like spinach and kale), matcha powder. Look for those foods.

 

[gwand]

Magnum, You could mix in a little turmeric, mild paparika or beet juice when you prepare the next batch of repashy for yellow and red enhancements. I’m going to try it.

 

[Seisage]

Brightly colored fish food is purely for our human sensibilities. Artificial dyes won't have much, if any, effect on a fish's coloration. The "color-enhancing" ingredients in foods which promise that effect are largely carotenoids. These are natural pigments found in a variety of plants, as well as shrimp and krill. Many fish foods will contain kelp and shrimp which have these compounds naturally, but astaxanthin is a common specific carotenoid supplement. Carotenoids will only really affect fish which have xanthophores (yellow pigment cells) and/or erythrophores (red pigment cells). Melanophores (black/brown) won't be affected, and green/blue/purple are colors generally created by physical structures refracting light, not pigments.

This isn't a fish example, but it's been shown that diets high in carotenoids can change the colors of certain frogs, most notably dart frogs which have yellow/orange/red coloration. Different types of carotenoids in varying concentrations will also have effects on the exact hues. When Allen Repashy was developing Superpig (a carotenoid supplement), he even surveyed hobbyists on a dart frog forum to ask whether they thought the supplement was turning their frogs too orange.

So, yes, I would expect that color-enhancing foods which utilize a lot of carotenoids probably do have some effect on fish coloration, but only to a certain extent. Behavioral signalling and general health of the animal will always be the primary drivers of appearance.