Miss Wiggle And Big Ian's First Marine Tank!

[BigIan]

yep i knoe the oyster shell will raise the ph and harden the water (thats why i bought it) we only added a sprinkleing and intend to do so every now and then to raise the ph. and hardness slowly...

and the skimmer has been running for several days now (without collecting anything don`t think theres enough bio load for it) so that should provide plenty of airiation. aswell as the filters are all places above water level and so create a bit of agitation. ( i do intend to increase surface agitation but when we got the tank we set it up as the guy who owned it had it (its worked like that for years so not going to change it imidately)

 

[Miss Wiggle]

What is your alkalinity? Did the LFS test all the parameters?

Low pH could also be a sign of low O2/high CO2. You can test gas exchange by taking a sample and aerating it strongly for a few minutes, then testing. If the pH goes up, you need more more water motion at the surface of the water.

Do you have nuisance algae yet? I would only add a few cleaners until you do, then increased the numbers as needed. You really don't want to add to your bioload until the biological filter catches up.

Did your LFS tell you that crushed oyster shell will raise your pH?

just ph, amonia, nitrite and nitrate

it won't be low o2, there's loads of surface agitation. the output from the filter and uv steriliser is both above the water level so it falls onto it and breaks up the surface plenty. Can't see that being the problem at all.

Nope, we thought that as there's such a small boiload we don't want to get the full clean up crew in straight off, we were thinking when we take the tang and clown back this weekend we'd get 1/2 shrimp and 4 hermit crabs, which I'm sure is more than enough to clean up after 2 clown's!!

we had the oyster shell from when we had african cichlids, it was quite sucessful in making ph changes, the lfs said it's fine for SW as well.

 

[SeahorseWhisperer]

I believe oyster shell and aragonite will break down to increase HCO3 and also provide some CA+, but it happens at a pH different than what our tanks occupants live. Maybe it works in FW because the pH is different? It will make an adequate surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow although most reefers (all actually) that I know use aragonite.

I think you should test your alkalinity next time you get a chance? Low alk can cause low pH but I am not sure that it will be low after a water a change and I don't think you have too many CA/HCO3 consumers. If it is low, you can add buffer using 5:1 parts baking soda and washing soda.

Low pH levels really encourage cyano....

Are you thinking peppermint shrimps? They are cool and if you have 2, they will spawn and the larve is a great snack for corals!

EDIT:

Only add additives that you have tested for......High is just as bad as low.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

I believe oyster shell and aragonite will break down to increase HCO3 and also provide some CA+, but it happens at a pH different than what our tanks occupants live. Maybe it works in FW because the pH is different? It will make an adequate surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow although most reefers (all actually) that I know use aragonite.

I think you should test your alkalinity next time you get a chance? Low alk can cause low pH but I am not sure that it will be low after a water a change and I don't think you have too many CA/HCO3 consumers. If it is low, you can add buffer using 5:1 parts baking soda and washing soda.

Low pH levels really encourage cyano....

Are you thinking peppermint shrimps? They are cool and if you have 2, they will spawn and the larve is a great snack for corals!

EDIT:

Only add additives that you have tested for......High is just as bad as low.

hmmm interesting about the oyster shell, will keep checking the ph and see what happens.

Ok I'll have a look at the alkalinity, dunno if we had a kit for testing that, if not I'll take it to the lfs though see if they can test for it.

yup we saw peppermints, cleaners and dancing shrimp in our lfs, we were thinking probably a combination of them.

sorry probably a dim question, what's cyano, sure i've read that word somewhere but it's slipped my mind.

what do you mean about additives you have tested for??

 

[Miss Wiggle]

awww I'm even more confused about our water stats now!! Ian's been at home today and done a water change with our RO, about 10g so 30% of the tank water.... tested the nitrate a couple of hrs later and 2 tests both returned sky high results, back up at 70 again, and this is with a brand new test kit, bought yesterday

help!! what's going on!!

I've told him to put the RO unit back on and make some more, we'll test again in a few hrs, see how it's looking then and keep doing small water changes and testing every day until it goes down. I don't understand how it's gone so high straight after a change??? would there be any point testing the RO water for nitrate's?

 

[SkiFletch]

Well, low pH is actually pretty normal for an older system that was never dosed with calc or alk. Since you guys are so into the researching aspect, let me give you some reef chemistry knowledge to chew on . Here's a basic guide to calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium and their relationship in reefkeeping. Since your surface agitation is pretty good I'd say your low pH is probably the cause of low calc/alk/mg. Not the end of the world and it can be corrected if done properly. Once you understand the relationship between those 3 elements, test your water to see where you're at. If you are low on calc/alk, check out this easy two part additive guide for longterm slow dosing to bring things back up to where they need to be.

My pH has slowly crept down as my tank has aged and my coral population increased (consequently draining calc/alk). I've just recently started dosing with the method I linked to slowly bring things back up to where I want them.

As for cleanup crew. Stick to smaller snails like nassarius, cerith, and trochus for the bulk of your crew. Then a couple bigger guys like a shrimp or two and maybe some scarlet hermits. I'd stay away from blueleg or zebra hermits since they will fight amongst each other and kill snails. I'd also stay away from trubo snails which cant tolerate summer heat and astrea snails which cant flip themselves over when they invariably fall in a place where they cant right themselves. You could also consider a brittlestar but keep in mind that in 3-5 years it will likely outgrow your tank. They live in small areas naturally, but can get large in captivity with no predation

Water tests should never be performed immediately after a water change. Allow at least an hour for things to mix and settle. When performing nitrate tests, make sure you follow the directions EXACTLY. Some bottles need to be shaken for certain times and never use your finger on the test tube, skews the reading a LOT. Was the nitrate kit you bought specifically for saltwater? Cause the saltwater and freshwater kits have way different color tables.

RO water cannot be tested for nitrates cause of its low solute count. The only way to test RO water is with a TDS meter (total dissolved solids)

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Well, low pH is actually pretty normal for an older system that was never dosed with calc or alk. Since you guys are so into the researching aspect, let me give you some reef chemistry knowledge to chew on . Here's a basic guide to calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium and their relationship in reefkeeping. Since your surface agitation is pretty good I'd say your low pH is probably the cause of low calc/alk/mg. Not the end of the world and it can be corrected if done properly. Once you understand the relationship between those 3 elements, test your water to see where you're at. If you are low on calc/alk, check out this easy two part additive guide for longterm slow dosing to bring things back up to where they need to be.

My pH has slowly crept down as my tank has aged and my coral population increased (consequently draining calc/alk). I've just recently started dosing with the method I linked to slowly bring things back up to where I want them.

As for cleanup crew. Stick to smaller snails like nassarius, cerith, and trochus for the bulk of your crew. Then a couple bigger guys like a shrimp or two and maybe some scarlet hermits. I'd stay away from blueleg or zebra hermits since they will fight amongst each other and kill snails. I'd also stay away from trubo snails which cant tolerate summer heat and astrea snails which cant flip themselves over when they invariably fall in a place where they cant right themselves. You could also consider a brittlestar but keep in mind that in 3-5 years it will likely outgrow your tank. They live in small areas naturally, but can get large in captivity with no predation

Water tests should never be performed immediately after a water change. Allow at least an hour for things to mix and settle. When performing nitrate tests, make sure you follow the directions EXACTLY. Some bottles need to be shaken for certain times and never use your finger on the test tube, skews the reading a LOT. Was the nitrate kit you bought specifically for saltwater? Cause the saltwater and freshwater kits have way different color tables.

RO water cannot be tested for nitrates cause of its low solute count. The only way to test RO water is with a TDS meter (total dissolved solids)

bah those articles won't open on my work pc, it's having a tantrum and locking up my web access, will read them at home later!

yup i'd considered all that about snails already (think i read you post the same thing elsewhere!) i think all the snails i've seen in the lfs are astrea and turbo, if the lfs where we have credit doesn't stock the other's we'll just get some shrimps and crabs and shop around for snails later. A starfish would be cool but I'm never keep on getting anything that's gonna outgrow my tank, don't like to think I might be stunting it keeping it too long.

we were gonna get 2 scarlet and 2 blue legged hermits, are the blue one's really that bad???

yeah I know nitrate tests can be a bugger, Ian said he did 3 though so I doubt if it's inaccurate. Well I'm off home soon anyway and that will be a good 3/4 hrs since the water change so I'll do some tests then. Yup it was specifically for SW, and I know not to do it with my finger, we've a fair few test tube's with lids.

ah well, will post some more results later.

Thanks for all your help everyone

 

[SkiFletch]

Yes the blue ones really are that bad. I watched one of my blues kill a much larger scarlet hermit just so he could take its shell. Was in a crevice I couldnt reach... The electric blue hermits are ok, but the standard bluelegs that are a dime a dozen are not good.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

well just done some more tests as it's been a good 4 hrs since the water change, should have settled by now.

ph 8.2
amonia, nitrite and phosphate 0
nitrate however is reading massivley high, I just don't understand, maybe the new test kit is fault, we're taking a sample of water and the test kit to the lfs now to have a look at it

 

[MoonTang]

Hey Miss Wiggle & BigIan


I currently have the same problems as you. Before i did a massive water change i was getting a reading of 40ppm nitrate and after the water change it was still at 40ppm. I thought it was the test kit being a little old, so i went and bought a new one. Still same results.

Well i just wanted to let you know my options as to what i'm thinking of doing now.

1. Build a refugium with deep sand bed, live rock rubble and lots of chaetomorpha. <--a little more time is needed but provides a natural food source for your fish.

2. Buy a Aqua Medic 400 Nitrate Reducer(about 120US).<--easy to install and works.



Hope thats some use to you and goodluck with your tank.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

well we went ot the lfs and tested our water there. nitrates definately sky high, but we looked really closely at our readings of amonia and nitrite the last few days as we've had teeny readings and we reckon that

a) the tank wasn't looked after before so it had relatively high nitrate before, the fish and corals are used to it which is why they aren't showing any signs of it hurting them now
B) we started a mini cycle when we moved the tank which gave us the slight amonia spike, then the nitrite spike which is just finishing, so the nitrate reading wasn't too bad yesterday but the added finished product of the nitrogen cycle (i.e. nitrate) added to the previously slightly bad reading has resulted in sky high nitrates even after a water change.

we tested our RO water too and that's still fine so it's not a case of the membrane needing changing.

since the water change despite the high readings all the coral's etc are looking the best they have since we've got them, everything's opened up and colourful and just generally looking really healthy.

as we've just done a big change we don't want to do another one as obviously this could upset things even more and everything is looking good we're just gonna do 10% changes every day until it start to drop down.

also got the skimmer working now, we've put a better pump on and replaced the airstone as it was a bit old, then we found the bit to adjust the water level and although I think we still need to tweak the water level bit to get it spot on it does seem to actually be doing something productive now which is always good!!

and on sat we're taking the tang back to the shop and getting some clean up crew. So I think within a week of us getting it (fingers crossed) we should have a much healthier better set up. Not been an easy week, very steep learning curve as I expected, but you know I'm starting to get pleased with how it's panning out now and with what we've learnt.

 

[BigIan]

as for the learning curve... i learnt thqat salt water stings

 

[SkiFletch]

Lol, yeah it does, especially with cuts. Let me take a minute to warn you guys about open wounds in the saltwater world... Dunno if you've read anything about the perils of sticking your hands in the tank with open wounds, but try to avoid it at all costs. You can get lots of nasty infections from the marine world (clean tank or not) that are very hard to diagnose and extremely dangerous. The most common of these bacterial infections are Mycobacterium Marinum and can be quite nasty. So just keep that in mind

If nitrates are truly a problem for you guys, you might want to really consider a nitrate ceramic media. I know kent makes one as do a few other companies. Water changes will work, but by the time you spend all that time and effort on RO, salt, mixing, etc its probably an even cheaper method and certainly less hassle. The ceramic medias are very safe and very effective for use in the saltwater world, and thats what I'd do if it were my tank

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah I know you can get all sorts of nasties. and with Ian being a builder he's quite often got cuts etc on his hands, they're permaenetly mangled

aye we'll do another 10% change tonight and check the results tomorrow morning, then we're off to the lfs tomorrow and there's a marine specialist shop on the other side of leeds we may well visit too so I'm sure we can pick something up if there's no improvement whatsoever by tomorrow.

We were also gonna pick up a bit of cured grotto rock, that's supposed to help complete the nitrogen cycle and reduce nitrates isn't it?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

well we were gonna go tomorrow to the lfs and take the tang and clown back and get soem clean up crew, but robbie williams is being very inconveinient and holding a massive gig near the lfs (I'm tempted to give him a piece of my mind! lol) so we don't reckon we'll get anywhere near it tomorrow, so we're just going up tonight after work instead.

Think we're gonna get 1/2 shrimp's and some crabs, also depending on what snails they have maybe a few of them too. If my memory serves me correctly though I think they only do the turbo's and the astrea's neither of which we want so we might not get any snails and source them from elsewhere. Plenty of places that do marine around here though so we'll find soemthing I'm sure.

We're both just getting dead excited at the prospect of cool shrimps and crabs! woooo inverts!