Looking For Advice On Levels

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Just carried out a 80% water change and levels have now dropped, Ammonia is 0ppm ( A very slight green tint of green but not enough to be 0.25ppm) and nitrite is 0.25ppm.
 
Unfortunately paradiddle is too far away for helping out with media, hopefully someone closer by might be able to help on that. 
 
Have you had any nitrate readings yet?
 
I had Nitrate readings of 0.5ppm yesterday before i done the first 30% water change. ( I know it is prob a bit confusing with the time difference) Readings were taken approximately 24 hours ago.
 
I have only only just carried out the 80% water change so was going to leave it a few hours before testing for nitrate, as the water change would have more than likely lowered the reading as it did with Ammonia and nitrite
 
Actually, I do not support the idea of automatically doing water changes at .25 or .5 ppm (or possibly higher) levels of total ammonia. The level at which any given total ammonia reading is harmful depends on the pH and temp of the water. I care about NH3 not NH4. At a pH of 7.5 a reading of .25 ppm total ammonia on an API kit does not contain enough NH3 to harm the most ammonia sensitive aquatic critters even if the water temp. was 90F (32.3C). This is simply not a problem for fish for the time frame it would be present during a normal fish in cycle.
 
Further, I almost never support water changes for dealing with nitrite. It simply slows the cycle. I do believe longer exposure to lower levels of things can be as harmful as exposure to higher levels for much less time. I prefer to deal with nitrite in another way, by adding chloride to the water using small amounts of plain old salt. This blocks the effects if nitrite inside the fish and does not do anything to make it less available to the bacteria. nitrite is a different ball game to ammonia. This method of dealing with nitrite is what is used in aquaculture where the scale usually prohibits doing water changes as a solution.
 
One note on ammonia removers. there are resins that use ion exchange to replace ammonia ions with sodium ions (I think I have the chemistry close to right). Zoolite is one. These do take the ammonia out of the water which means it is not available in any form for the bacteria. In theory, if one is using this sort of product you should not be able to detect ammonia.
 
Right well i am now totally confused what to do.
 
My Ammonia is low now so you are saying I should stop water changes and deal with the higher levels of nitrite with salt.
 
my levels as of now are.
 
Water Temp - 25.5C
Ph 7.6
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0.25ppm
Nitrate - 2.5ppm
 
Sorry, TTA, did you mean Zeolite (cat litter)?
 
He might be suggesting that if your ammonia/nitrite levels are at 0.25 anytime, the go-to response shouldn't always be to do a water change. I'll confess, I did a fish in cycle (started before I came across this forum) and I just couldn't get my ammonia levels down below 0.25ppm - according to my API Master Test Kit. So, for a time, my fish were exposed to higher-than-you-would-like ammonia levels. I didn't suffer a single loss, though...
 
Even if you are getting readings of 0.25ppm ammonia, it may not necessarily mean it's all in it's most toxic form. If your water is slightly acidic then chances are some of it is NH4 as opposed to NH3. TTA is much better at explaining it than I am!
 
Thanks, I can see what is being said. My water is slightly alkaline at the moment.
From reading between the lines I will keep an eye on the levels and if ammonia stays where it is I will leave it alone. And if nitrite levels get to high I can tackle it with aquarium salt.
 
TwoTankAmin said:
Actually, I do not support the idea of automatically doing water changes at .25 or .5 ppm (or possibly higher) levels of total ammonia. The level at which any given total ammonia reading is harmful depends on the pH and temp of the water. I care about NH3 not NH4. At a pH of 7.5 a reading of .25 ppm total ammonia on an API kit does not contain enough NH3 to harm the most ammonia sensitive aquatic critters even if the water temp. was 90F (32.3C). This is simply not a problem for fish for the time frame it would be present during a normal fish in cycle.
 
Further, I almost never support water changes for dealing with nitrite. It simply slows the cycle. I do believe longer exposure to lower levels of things can be as harmful as exposure to higher levels for much less time. I prefer to deal with nitrite in another way, by adding chloride to the water using small amounts of plain old salt. This blocks the effects if nitrite inside the fish and does not do anything to make it less available to the bacteria. nitrite is a different ball game to ammonia. This method of dealing with nitrite is what is used in aquaculture where the scale usually prohibits doing water changes as a solution.
 
One note on ammonia removers. there are resins that use ion exchange to replace ammonia ions with sodium ions (I think I have the chemistry close to right). Zoolite is one. These do take the ammonia out of the water which means it is not available in any form for the bacteria. In theory, if one is using this sort of product you should not be able to detect ammonia.
 
How much salt should he use per liter of tank water?   
 
 
Quigs, your levels are starting to look closer.  The fact that nitrate is rising is a good sign that your nitrites are already starting to be converted.  I generally view this as the last leg of the cycle, and would usually do water changes to keep the levels around .5ppm but it seems that there is a more humane way of adding salt that I had not previously known much about.
 
All the help and advice from everyone is much appreciated. Will be glad once the tank has finished cycling 
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Thanks for asking how much salt to add for me ech0o, if it helps my tank is 140L.
 
Im glad my levels are starting to look closer, I thought that it might of been the last leg of cycle and glad you say the same. 
 
The levels are looking pretty good on nitrite and ammonia, i will do another test on Ph, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate in a few hours time before bed and report the results back here.
 
As for the salt i looked on the card that came with my Api test kit and says to use Salt as well as some other  treatments ( which ive been advised not to used) for Nitrite.
 
 
On another note, i am still on the hunt for some established media close to where i live to help with the last part of the cycle.
 
Just taken another test.
Results are
Ph - 7.2
Ammonia - 0.12ppm (between 0 and 0.25)
Nitrite - 0.25ppm
Nitrate - 2.5ppm (between 0 and 5.0)
 
Quigs those numbers look pretty safe ,esp if they remain there of go lower. But watch the fish, no matter what one's readings may appear to be, when the fish show distress, they are usually more accurate than the tests and you should do a water change. Don't waste your time or money on the nitrate teststing.
 
There is a whole lot of stuff involved here. As for ammonia and short term exposure periods - i.e. days or weeks, are different than long term or extended periods.
 
Depending on one's pH and tank temp. as well as the specific stock in a tank, I will often suggest that one can allow total ammmonia to rise close to 2 ppm before doing a water change. But that is another story.
 
As for the nitrite and salt. There are formulas to use. First off the only time ppm will be used is when you test nitrite levels (although some kits may give this in mg/L). Fortunately in water ppm and mg/L are almost identical.
 
The basic guideline is for every 1 ppm of nitrite there should be 10 ppm of chloride added. So we can say 10 mg/L of chloride is is needed. The simplest cheapest and most available is plain old salt, the kind you shake onto you your steak or veggies, is sodium chloride (NaCl). In fact, it is just under 2/3 chloride. So, if the goal is to get 1 mg/L of chloride into the water, we need to add roughly 1.5 mg/L of salt. As you can see this means all the rest of the volume calculation must be done in litres (stop laughing at us yanks, please).
 
This means if you are working in gallons, you will have to do the math to know your water volume in liters (which is how we spell litres over here). Don't forget, most tanks hold some amount less than their advertised capacity. It is your responsibility to work out a reasonably accurate approximation of the actual volume of water in your tank. For purpose of the rest of the steps, lets assume we are dealing with a tank that holds 150 L and that you have tested nitrite and its 2 ppm. So here comes the math
 
- 2 ppm NO2 x 10 = 20 ppm aka mgL of chloride needed. 2 x10 = 20 mg/L.
 
- Salt to produce 20 mg/L cl is 20 x 1.5 = 30 mg/L salt
 
- 150L x 30 mg/L= 4,500 mg of salt to achieve 20 mg/L of chloride
 
- 4,500mg/1,000 = 4.5 g of salt.
 
Now all you need is a scale to measure this amount. I can tell you a just measured a 1/4 level teaspoon of Mortons table salt at 2.15 gm on a tripple beam Ohaus scale. This means to handle that 2 ppm of nitrite in 150 L of water will take a hair over 1/2 teaspoon of water. Take this up a few ppm of nitrite to say 6 ppm, and the amount of salt shoots wayt up to a whopping1.25 teaspoons. As people who keep brackish or sw water tanks how salty this is.
whistling.gif

 
This level of salt for the short term should not bother species normally thought of as salt intolerant. The same for plants. But if you are still worried, their are more expensive ways to get chloride into tanks. But they are not really at hand in most fishkeepers homes.
 
Bear in mind that it is the Na part of salt that the salt intolerant fish tend not to like. the only way to get salt out of water is via water changes. So, as soon as nitrite have dropped to 0 ppm on your kit, do a couple of big water changes over the next week or two. Remember, reducing something to 1/4 of the level it is at requires two consecutive 50% water changes or one 75% water change. etc.
 
Thanks TTA, I will keep an eye on them and report any changes if go higher or lower.
 
The fish in the tank seem happy enough, swimming out nicely and not gasping for air or any erratic movements.
 
The Nitrate test came with the test kit so i will use it but once it runs out i wont bother replacing it.
 
Thanks for all the info on the salt and Ammonia levels, all starting to make sense now.
 
But for a bit of a maths lesson i thought i would calculate the amount of salt i would need for my nitrite level and tank size (levels are safe so wont do it just working it out)
 
I came out with 0.525g salt.
 
The salt i have here is just a supermarket brand salt that we use on or food, like fish and chips 
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here we go.
 
My tank is 120 x 36.5 x 32.5 cm = 142.35 litres.  (internal dimensions)
 
 
Rounded down for Decor = 140 litres
 
0.25ppm Nitrite x 10 mg/l chloride = 2.5mg/l chloride.
 
2.5mg/l x 1.5mg/l salt = 3.75mg/l salt
 
3.75mg/l salt x 140L = 525mg salt.
 
525mg salt/1000 = 0.525g salt.
 
So i would need to add 0.5grams of salt.
 
And i understand that the only way to dilute the salt down is water changes as salt does not evaporate.
 
So ive checked the levels again today and Ammonia is still the same at 0.12ppm but nitrite has risen back upto 1ppm.

As the Ammonia is still at a safe level I will not do a partial water change.

I can sort the nitrite with salt, I have worked out the calculations for how much and it is 2.1 grams of salt I would need to add.

My question is will I see a change in nitrite levels?

And would you add the full dose in one go or half then the other half 24 hours later?

If no change in nitrite when adding salt then I will have to adjust salt levels with with water changes? For example if the nitrite drops to 0.5ppm I would need to do a 50% water change so the salt level matches the nitrite level?

On a plus note my seachem prime has turned up :)
 
I don't believe you see the nitrite leave, i think it just detoxifies it, again I could surely be wrong haha
 
Haha, I will leave all well alone until someone confirms then.
 

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