Live bearers in soft water

[anewbie]

I currently have a bunch of guppy in one of my aquariums with water conditions tds 120 gh 7; and they do ok though i suppose they would prefer harder water. When i move the new aquarium will have target conditions tds 60 gh 3 which is probably too soft for them. The tank will have primarily sa fishes but a few rasbora and panda gara - population will include leo angels (maybe), keyhole cichild (probably), pygmy cory, orange laser cory, few whiptail like species, and probably one other dwarf cichild species (maybe nannacara amolae) - but I think i will have to remove the guppies and put them somewhere with harder water.

What are some livebearer species that do well in soft water; temp around 76-78 and will not eat plants (though they can eat all the algae they want).

 

[emeraldking]

Hi,
Fancy guppies with larger fins do prefer harder water. gH 3 Would be too soft for livebearers. There are livebearers that live in soft water but not lower than gH 5. Livebearers like short finned guppies, endlers, least killifish, teddy tigers, dwarf merry widow, mosquito fish will do fine in softer water. There are more livebearer species that will do well in softer water but won't be offered at an average lfs.
Most livebearers are good algae eaters. It's even needed for most of them. A number of livebearer species can even be kept at lower temperatures. But if I look at the planned stocking, I would put those guppies separate from the other fish.

 

[anewbie]

Hi,
Fancy guppies with larger fins do prefer harder water. gH 3 Would be too soft for livebearers. There are livebearers that live in soft water but not lower than gH 5. Livebearers like short finned guppies, endlers, least killifish, teddy tigers, dwarf merry widow, mosquito fish will do fine in softer water. There are more livebearer species that will do well in softer water but won't be offered at an average lfs.
Most livebearers are good algae eaters. It's even needed for most of them. A number of livebearer species can even be kept at lower temperatures. But if I look at the planned stocking, I would put those guppies separate from the other fish.

I thought there were a few specific species that actually did well in soft-water but perhaps i am mistaken.

 

[GaryE]

There are a few livebearers that thrive in softwater, but they are hard to find. I watch out for them and see them extremely rarely. They are difficult fish to keep. I have never seen them in any North American store, and only at dealers specializing in rarities.

 

[anewbie]

There are a few livebearers that thrive in softwater, but they are hard to find. I watch out for them and see them extremely rarely. They are difficult fish to keep. I have never seen them in any North American store, and only at dealers specializing in rarities.

Do you have species list? Or some of them? Btw these days i mostly only use speciality stores since i can never find what i want from normal places. This doesn't mean they will carry these fishes as I mostly look for dwarf cichild but they might.

 

[emeraldking]

I thought there were a few specific species that actually did well in soft-water but perhaps i am mistaken.

Like I've already mentioned, there are livebearer species that thrive well in soft water but a Gh of 3 is really too low for them.

Do you have species list? Or some of them? Btw these days i mostly only use speciality stores since i can never find what i want from normal places. This doesn't mean they will carry these fishes as I mostly look for dwarf cichild but they might.

Even the so-called specialty stores may not have them. Best is to seek for a private breeder who may have them.

 

[anewbie]

Like I've already mentioned, there are livebearer species that thrive well in soft water but a Gh of 3 is really too low for them.

Even the so-called specialty stores may not have them. Best is to seek for a private breeder who may have them.

I'm sorry about the confusion - i think the problem is i don't consider gh 3 as being that soft so when you said there were species that thrive in soft water i assumed they would thrive in water much softer than that.

 

[GaryE]

I lost my last softwater livebearers in my move to where I am now. I kept both Micropoecilia branneri and Priapichthys nigroventralis - great tiny fish. But even if I had them, you are in the USA and I can't legally send you fish.

 

[Byron]

@anewbie and whomever else...terms like "soft" are not defined scientifically, they are subjective which means, it depends who is using/considering the term. Some years ago I did an article on water parameters and researched these terms and came up with the most accepted, by which I mean Seriously Fish and similar reliable sites used roughly the same definitions.

0 - 4 dGH 0 - 70 ppm very soft
4 - 8 dGH 70 - 140 ppm soft
8 - 12 dGH 140 - 210 ppm medium hard
12 - 18 dGH 210 - 320 ppm fairly hard
18 - 30 dGH 320 - 530 ppm hard
over 30 dGH over 530 ppm very hard

As I said, this is not scientifically defined, but the majority of the authorities were very close to this list. But it is still best to use numbers to be sure everyone is on the same page. So, a GH of 3 dH is very soft.

 

[GaryE]

I'll muddy the waters. @Byron's post is really useful, but then we get to the nitty gritty. I breed fish whose eggs are very sensitive to mineral content. I am lucky to have 65 to 85 dGH, depending on the season. It usually sits at 75. In my previous house, I was at 85 to 100. The water read very similar on all test kits.
I know I'm the guy who never uses an API ammonia kit, but I value hardness readings very much. That I keep an eye on.
I do seem differences in egg development between the two houses. That says that what those minerals are can vary by the habitats we find ourselves in. How many ppm of what can be a valid question I lack the training to analyze.
In the old house/city, the water came from a large, moderately soft river. Here, it comes from a blackwater chain of lakes, with the tannins filtered out. The kits say it's the same, or very close, but the eggs don't lie.

 

[anewbie]

I'll muddy the waters. @Byron's post is really useful, but then we get to the nitty gritty. I breed fish whose eggs are very sensitive to mineral content. I am lucky to have 65 to 85 dGH, depending on the season. It usually sits at 75. In my previous house, I was at 85 to 100. The water read very similar on all test kits.
I know I'm the guy who never uses an API ammonia kit, but I value hardness readings very much. That I keep an eye on.
I do seem differences in egg development between the two houses. That says that what those minerals are can vary by the habitats we find ourselves in. How many ppm of what can be a valid question I lack the training to analyze.
In the old house/city, the water came from a large, moderately soft river. Here, it comes from a blackwater chain of lakes, with the tannins filtered out. The kits say it's the same, or very close, but the eggs don't lie.

Is the 65-85 degree or tds; ....

 

[anewbie]

@anewbie and whomever else...terms like "soft" are not defined scientifically, they are subjective which means, it depends who is using/considering the term. Some years ago I did an article on water parameters and researched these terms and came up with the most accepted, by which I mean Seriously Fish and similar reliable sites used roughly the same definitions.

0 - 4 dGH 0 - 70 ppm very soft
4 - 8 dGH 70 - 140 ppm soft
8 - 12 dGH 140 - 210 ppm medium hard
12 - 18 dGH 210 - 320 ppm fairly hard
18 - 30 dGH 320 - 530 ppm hard
over 30 dGH over 530 ppm very hard

As I said, this is not scientifically defined, but the majority of the authorities were very close to this list. But it is still best to use numbers to be sure everyone is on the same page. So, a GH of 3 dH is very soft.

Well i did say tds 60; so i guess what you are saying I should edit the subject and put very soft.... but none the less the question stands the same are there live bearers that do well in 3 dgh/60 tds water ?

Gary mentioned a couple of species I should look into but i suspect they are too small; and emeraldking says nay (and I think he added confusion by focusing on the word 'soft' and not the specified condition).

 

[GaryE]

You're in the US, so you could join the American Livebearer Association and set out to find the always small livebearers that would thrive in that water. In the main though, livebearing evolved in species found over limestone, so the basic answer is "Yes, but extremely hard to find in the hobby." I never found Mexican, Honduran, Guatemalan or Belizean livebearers at less than 280 tds. The home region for the common ones is very hard and the fish have adapted to it to the point they do poorly in lower minerals.

There is one exception - tiny wild type guppies, without the big inbred fins. They did okay at about tds 90 in my set up. But 60 is quite a drop off from that.

 

[anewbie]

You're in the US, so you could join the American Livebearer Association and set out to find the always small livebearers that would thrive in that water. In the main though, livebearing evolved in species found over limestone, so the basic answer is "Yes, but extremely hard to find in the hobby." I never found Mexican, Honduran, Guatemalan or Belizean livebearers at less than 280 tds. The home region for the common ones is very hard and the fish have adapted to it to the point they do poorly in lower minerals.

There is one exception - tiny wild type guppies, without the big inbred fins. They did okay at about tds 90 in my set up. But 60 is quite a drop off from that.

Its ok - what trigger this post is a long time ago in these forums I said live bearers require harder water and someone said no there were species that were soft water species. Now that i am transitioning my tank to softer water for i wanted to check if there was a suitable replacement for my guppies and I think the answer is no. Btw i keep my guppies in tds 120 water - but i don't want to move them to tds 30. I like them too much. Anyway thanks all i think my question has been answered and I'll stick to egg layers suitable for softer waters.

 

[GaryE]

It's luck, really. If you know an importer who deals in high end rarities, then every 5 years or so, you will see a softwater livebearer. If you ask if they exist, they do. If you ask if they are available, they aren't...