Lfs Told Me Not To Add More Fish

[Deleted member 55926]

Hey everyone,

I planted my tank on Saturday, and on Sunday went to the LFS to get some fish. I got 12 Neon Tetras and 2 Dwarf Gouramis. Then the guy assisting me basically stopped me and said that would be enough for now, adding:

1. I shouldn't get a bristlenose pleco yet, as the tank is clean and new, so it wouldn't have any natural food to eat. He said if I fed it algae wafers, it would get used to them and then wouldn't eat any naturally occuring food.
   
2. I shouldn't get any shrimp yet. Again, no natural food in the tank yet.
   
3. I shouldn't get any frogs yet. Something about bloodworms... they wouldn't eat them and they would decompose in the tank? I couldn't really understand what he was talking about at all. I couldn't understand how it would make a difference in 4 weeks.
   
4. He then told me to come back in a couple of weeks with a water sample, and they would check for nitrate, etc.

At the time, I didn't really take in what he was saying properly, but now that I've had time to mull it over I'm not sure about what he has said. It was quite hard at the time for me to think on my toes, as I'm obviously not experienced. Basically, I think he didn't really listen or understand when I told him I had fishless cycled the tank, and I think he assumed that my tank is pristine and new. So maybe he is presuming the fish I just got will be used to cycle the tank - which is stupid, because even I am sure Neon Tetras aren't exactly the hardiest fish.

Surely the whole point of me spending two and a half months to cycle the tank is so that I can add a heavier bio load immediately? If I don't add enough fish now, won't the bacteria colonies simply shrink in size? I will then have to slowly build them up again by adding fish slowly. Now I understand that fish should be added gradually to ensure there aren't any problems, but I didn't go through all the months of frustration, research and waiting around for nothing. I might as well have just cycled the tank to cope with 2.5ppm ammonia or something.

All the wood in my tank is covered with a film of mould. The gravel, I think, is equally laden with dirt. The java moss I have added has patches of brownish dirt that I assume could be algae, maybe from my tank, maybe from the LFS. Either way, I don't think I agree with the guy's reasoning, and am wondering if any of you could offer some advice or explanation for what he is saying.

Thanks.

 

[AdAndrews]

good fish shop, go there again, i wish mine did things like that. Im not sure the comment about the bn eating algae wafers is right though..

 

[VaegaVic]

Hey everyone,

I planted my tank on Saturday, and on Sunday went to the LFS to get some fish. I got 12 Neon Tetras and 2 Dwarf Gouramis. Then the guy assisting me basically stopped me and said that would be enough for now, adding:

1. I shouldn't get a bristlenose pleco yet, as the tank is clean and new, so it wouldn't have any natural food to eat. He said if I fed it algae wafers, it would get used to them and then wouldn't eat any naturally occuring food. Rubbish, generally, BN's will quite happily munch any food they find, mine do atleast.
2. I shouldn't get any shrimp yet. Again, no natural food in the tank yet. Good idea, there could very easily be no algae at all in your tank, this is good advice.
3. I shouldn't get any frogs yet. Something about bloodworms... they wouldn't eat them and they would decompose in the tank? I couldn't really understand what he was talking about at all. I couldn't understand how it would make a difference in 4 weeks. You shouldn't be adding frogs anyway as most will catch and kill fish.
4. He then told me to come back in a couple of weeks with a water sample, and they would check for nitrate, etc. Fair enough, he's assuming your tank isn't cycled, see how you water quality is next week and then add some more fish, if he doesn't sell them to you, try a different LFS, obviously, any ammonia means you shouldn't be adding anymore fish at all until you can control it.

At the time, I didn't really take in what he was saying properly, but now that I've had time to mull it over I'm not sure about what he has said. It was quite hard at the time for me to think on my toes, as I'm obviously not experienced. Basically, I think he didn't really listen or understand when I told him I had fishless cycled the tank, and I think he assumed that my tank is pristine and new. So maybe he is presuming the fish I just got will be used to cycle the tank - which is stupid, because even I am sure Neon Tetras aren't exactly the hardiest fish.

Surely the whole point of me spending two and a half months to cycle the tank is so that I can add a heavier bio load immediately? If I don't add enough fish now, won't the bacteria colonies simply shrink in size? I will then have to slowly build them up again by adding fish slowly. Now I understand that fish should be added gradually to ensure there aren't any problems, but I didn't go through all the months of frustration, research and waiting around for nothing. I might as well have just cycled the tank to cope with 2.5ppm ammonia or something.

All the wood in my tank is covered with a film of mould. The gravel, I think, is equally laden with dirt. The java moss I have added has patches of brownish dirt that I assume could be algae, maybe from my tank, maybe from the LFS. Either way, I don't think I agree with the guy's reasoning, and am wondering if any of you could offer some advice or explanation for what he is saying.

Thanks.

In all honesty, I think he is right.
It's never a good idea to add too many fish at once, even if the tank has been fishlessly-cycled. If you go by, "I've fishlessly cycled my tank, I'm going to add all my fish in one hit" then I ask you, how many is all?
You could very easily overstock your tank and get carried away. Alot of shops also limit you to how many fish you can have at once, for good reason.


Better to be safe than sorry. Even if the bacterial colony shrinks, you can always add to it again, as you've already said.

 

[Loops]

Wow finally somewhere stopping you buying fish for the right reasons!

The normally don't really care!

 

[Haych]

The fish guy is right - if you add too many fish in one go, it is a bigger bio load than your filter can cope with as it hasn't dealt with much yet. You have to give it chance to adjust to your new load, then add gradually overtime.

 

[Harlequins]

Its nice to hear an lfs taking notice of adding too many fish in one hit,in theory after a fishless cycle you can reasonably stock the tank,but still keep a check on the readings just to be on the safe side.

You can always add more if the stats are ok

 

[Deleted member 55926]

I don't doubt it's a good fish shop. I have compared it with a couple of others, and it's clear from the quality of the plants and the sheer range of stock they have. I think it's won awards (Wholesale Tropical, Bethnal Green - for anyone in London), and is family-owned and run.

I guess I'm just frustrated again. I don't know why I bothered spending so long cycling my tank to deal with 5ppm ammonia, when the advice is to stagger the stocking anyway. It seems to me that this is just contradictory. Surely, based on this, the best thing for beginners to do would be to fishless cycle to deal with a small initial bio load, not a full bio load.

You shouldn't be adding frogs anyway as most will catch and kill fish.

I was under the impression African Dwarf Frogs are fine in a community tank.

 

[Harlequins]

I suppose a lot of lfs don't think people do fishless cycles,so they're unaware of the advantages for stocking more,initially its up to you,if your not happy with their advice,try somewhere else,
Just be aware that if you get a lot of different species in one hit,and one has a disease this will affect the whole new stock.
most lfs by me won't sell alot of fish in one go,just in case i suppose.

 

[tropicaldave]

Listen to the guy in Wholesale Tropicals, he does know his stuff, I have bought fish from him on several occasions, a very knowledgeable guy and would recomend to anybody

 

[Malt_Vinegar]

Fully agree with the advice given around stock numbers.

Dumping too many fish into a cycled tank will effectively un-cycle it.

Cycling a tank does not mean you can just dump a million fish in there. You start by adding a few fish to steady the cycle, and then adding a few more every couple of weeks will allow the filters to adjust to the new bioload and keep everything ticking over without stressing the fish.

 

[Jenste]

african dwarf frogs make a fine addition to a community tank if you are willing to give them the special care they deserve - they hunt by scent, not sight, so they are slower at finding their food then the fish - fish love bloodworms so you could end up with starved froggies!!!

if you would like to add frogs, add more than one....they are quite adorable interacting with each other - and give them plenty of hiding spots....if they know they have a secure place to run to they are more active and inquisitive.

as for feeding....add the bloodworms into the same corner every night with a turkey baster - then turn off the lights. fish tend to eat less with the lights off, and now the frogs can hunt and eat in peace....plus by adding the food into the same corner, the frogs learn where to look when they smell the food.

also, a ten gallon is probably about 12" high...perfect for frogs because they breathe oxygen....a height of more than 16-18" can make the frog struggle to much and they may drown.


pick peaceful tank mates who won't nip at the frogs - i would be concerned about any of the cichlid family primarily - I have housed my frogs and heard of others housing their frogs with platies, guppies, more peaceful species of gouramis such as pearls, corydoras, kuhli loaches, goldfish, bettas (as long as the betta is added last so he takes in the frogs as part of "his" territory), tetras (just watch for toe/eye nipping!!!!).....as long as you watch and make sure the frogs are not getting toes or eyes nipped then all should be well..



also - - make sure you get african DWARF frogs (adf) and not african CLAWED frogs (acf)

if it is albino - it is clawed. albino dwards do not occur.

check the feet!!!! webbing between the toes on all four feet - ADF .....webbing only between the toes on the hind feet - ACF!!!
also their eyes - if they are flush on the sides of the face - ADF .... if they sit onto of the head and are slightly protruding - ACF!!!

both are wonderful creatures and I own both.....but they require vastly different tank setups and ACF will eat any fish it can catch.

if you have any other questions about frogs in the aquarium, please feel free to ask or PM

 

[fishyfeet]

Wholesale tropicals are brilliant, do what they suggest, and ask them questions, what do they suggest you should add then, would they be ok with (whatever you ultimately want in your tank), i wish i lived closer to them. di

 

[roadmaster]

I don't doubt it's a good fish shop. I have compared it with a couple of others, and it's clear from the quality of the plants and the sheer range of stock they have. I think it's won awards (Wholesale Tropical, Bethnal Green - for anyone in London), and is family-owned and run.

I guess I'm just frustrated again. I don't know why I bothered spending so long cycling my tank to deal with 5ppm ammonia, when the advice is to stagger the stocking anyway. It seems to me that this is just contradictory. Surely, based on this, the best thing for beginners to do would be to fishless cycle to deal with a small initial bio load, not a full bio load.

You shouldn't be adding frogs anyway as most will catch and kill fish.

I was under the impression African Dwarf Frogs are fine in a community tank.

Refreshing to see fish store looking out for your interests. I would even go further by suggesting that you quarantine new fish for minimum two weeks before adding them to your tank. Use the time that fish are in quarantine to allow the tank to continue to mature gradually. Stocking a tank to close to capacity at once,is not advisable and can lead to spikes in ammonia and or nitrites despite bacterial colony that has developed.Large number of fish will produce waste that may or may not be consumed by the bacteria as quickly as one hopes depending on types of fish,size of fish,foods offered,and number of feedings per day. is in my view,still possible to see spikes in ammonia and nitrites unless one can accurately gauge the afore mentioned. Opinions vary.

 

[Squid]

I agree with most of what the LFS said, but would still go against what they sold you.

I performed a fishless cycle, but I would still take time adding fish. If I were to ever do it again, I would probably add about 50% of the fish.

Now the problem for me is that there is a difference between a cycled tank and a mature tank. As you pointed out, neons are not the hardiest fish and in my eyes are not ideal in a new tank. Dwarf Gouramis are also prone to things like bacterial infections and would also do better in more mature tank.

With regards to the bio-load, the hardest bit is getting it cycled and going. Once a tank has been cycled and is up and running for a bit, it can often adapt to the addition of fish very quickly without a mini-cycle. The bacteria doubles at an alarming rate, and therefore can grow with the additional ammonia and nitrites very quickly.

Take you time . It's frustrating, but not as frustrating as digging out dead fish. I had to do that a few times, and it really made me paranoid and ruined my early days of fishkeeping.

Squid.

 

[Assaye]

I planted my tank on Saturday, and on Sunday went to the LFS to get some fish. I got 12 Neon Tetras and 2 Dwarf Gouramis. Then the guy assisting me basically stopped me and said that would be enough for now

14 fish is a MASSIVE number for a uncycled tank (unless you have a 500 ltr tank or something) so if he was assuming your tank was uncycled, he was way off on the number of fish you should add. Neons are also super-fragile and so should never be used to cycle a tank (another possible failing on his part) and tbh, I wouldn't add them to a freshly cycled tank either. They're best off at 6 months +, so good luck.

However, even if he realised your tank was fishless cycled, he may still have been wary. He doesn't know how much waste all the fish will produce in ppm, and I doubt you do either. You got enough fish to ensure they wouldn't go over the 4-5ppm you've cycled to but also got enough fish that you're not just adding them in ones and twos.

1. I shouldn't get a bristlenose pleco yet, as the tank is clean and new, so it wouldn't have any natural food to eat. He said if I fed it algae wafers, it would get used to them and then wouldn't eat any naturally occuring food.

1. 
   
   I think this is rubbish. I mean, if you want the plec as an algae eater first and foremost, then perhaps waiting so it doesn't grow used to "free meals" is a good idea but most people want plecs because they are nice fish, not just beause they want a worker. Guess it depends why you want the beastie.
   
   

   [*]I shouldn't get any shrimp yet. Again, no natural food in the tank yet.

   
   These guys do better in mature tanks anyway, like neons. However, on the point made, shrimp are manic cleaners. They can't tell the difference between an algae pellet dropped in for them and something they have just stumbled across. My shrimp will eat ANYTHING.
   
   

   [*]I shouldn't get any frogs yet. Something about bloodworms... they wouldn't eat them and they would decompose in the tank? I couldn't really understand what he was talking about at all. I couldn't understand how it would make a difference in 4 weeks.

   
   Total rubbish. Yes, you need to pretty much handfeed frogs as they have rubbish eyesight, but as long as you make sure they are eating and clean up any mess, you should be fine. Waiting won't make a difference. Just make sure you get african dwarf frogs. The clawed frogs will kill your fish.
   

   [*]He then told me to come back in a couple of weeks with a water sample, and they would check for nitrate, etc.

Bless them. I hope they weren't working on the basis that your tank was uncycled . . .

Surely the whole point of me spending two and a half months to cycle the tank is so that I can add a heavier bio load immediately? If I don't add enough fish now, won't the bacteria colonies simply shrink in size? I will then have to slowly build them up again by adding fish slowly. Now I understand that fish should be added gradually to ensure there aren't any problems, but I didn't go through all the months of frustration, research and waiting around for nothing. I might as well have just cycled the tank to cope with 2.5ppm ammonia or something.

Cycling to 2.5 ppm would take just as long. The reason we fishless cycle isn't so we can add all out stock straight away, it is so that we can battle through the initial population by bacteria without hurting our fish. Yes, you'll get a tiny mini cycle when adding new fish but once the bacteria are established, they can reproduce rapidly enough that the fish will barely notice any spikes. However, waiting for the bacteria to get going in a new tank is very difference and takes a long time. So we fishless cycle to avoid putting fish through that.

It's also worth noting that some people don't believe a fishless cycle does the entire job in the tank. Some believe there may be other bacteria cultures and such that grow in response to chemicals we don't test for, and using ammonia to cycle only does half the job. If this *is* true, then it is obviously wise to stock slowly even after having fishless cycled.

All the wood in my tank is covered with a film of mould. The gravel, I think, is equally laden with dirt. The java moss I have added has patches of brownish dirt that I assume could be algae, maybe from my tank, maybe from the LFS. Either way, I don't think I agree with the guy's reasoning, and am wondering if any of you could offer some advice or explanation for what he is saying.

Thanks.

At least he was willing to halt a sale he wasn't happy with. He may be off with his advice but seems he was trying to put the fish first.