Kmur's Cycle Journal

[Uriel]

This may seem like a stupid thing to say but make sure you clean the test tubes and dropper/syringe well after testing. I was getting a trace ammonia and 0 nitrite for last 2-3 days and was confused then tested tap water and also got trace ammonia. So gave everything a good wash and tank water and tap water where at 0 ammonia. Seems the ammonia tests are very sensitive to even tiny trace amounts. Just a thought.

 

[kmur]

This may seem like a stupid thing to say but make sure you clean the test tubes and dropper/syringe well after testing. I was getting a trace ammonia and 0 nitrite for last 2-3 days and was confused then tested tap water and also got trace ammonia. So gave everything a good wash and tank water and tap water where at 0 ammonia. Seems the ammonia tests are very sensitive to even tiny trace amounts. Just a thought.

Definitely good advice, but it is something I already considered in my frustration. I always wash in tap water after testing, and then add a little tank water, shake well, dump that water and grab a fresh batch for each test

 

[kmur]

My ammonia kit is almost out; I think i will get a different brand next time, just to see if there is any difference. Also, half for the sake of humor, and half for the sake of proving I'm not colorblind, I am testing everything again and taking pictures of the samples next to the color chart

Photo time! This post just didn't have enough colors in my opinion.

I tried to get these in as close to natural light as possible with no artificial lights to skew things. I also sanitized all my viles before half to ensure correct results... Which was probably a good thing, since my pH ended up different! Guess I hadn't cleaned that one as well as I should have. =/

Pretty, huh?

The ammonia - If my eyes don't deceive me, it's just a little more green than 0, so I say it's at 1ppm or 2ppm.

The nitrite; As yellow as it gets.

The nitrate; A little harder to tell in the photo, but either way, not very high.

And the pH, which is looking much closer to 7 now that I've cleaned out my viles. Definitely going to get some bicarb today and try and get that up a bit.

 

[waterdrop]

The Sera kit is not our "lingua franca" as much as the API kit is among members. That's not to say it is not working properly but just that it leaves me uneasy about how it might behave in real use.

Does it give nice recognizable zero values on your tap water?

I know we've probably been over the territory multiple times before but this keeps looking like "blow-by" (where the tank water somehow gets past the media without really having to pass through it) but on the other hand a fishless cycle that hasn't really been able to start will look like this too. I know that's not helpful, I'm just thinking out loud.

I also keep having trouble because the "Day X" data is not there (or I'm lazy, lol.) I remember the last time I looked in on this case it took me a long time to determine that in fact it was only really 2 weeks in to the fishless cycle and after I realized that it seemed that the ammonia not really doing anything was fairly normal. I assume fairly much time has passed by now, so it shouldn't still be looking the same.

I also think I remember the pH stayed reasonably high? And the plant coverage is not heavy, right? The ammonia has a kick if you get a whiff?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Uriel]

Do plants negatively effect your cycle. The reason i ask is i may have bought a plant or 30 while waiting for my tank to cycle. Just my way of handling the wait.

 

[kmur]

The Sera kit is not our "lingua franca" as much as the API kit is among members. That's not to say it is not working properly but just that it leaves me uneasy about how it might behave in real use.

Does it give nice recognizable zero values on your tap water?

I know we've probably been over the territory multiple times before but this keeps looking like "blow-by" (where the tank water somehow gets past the media without really having to pass through it) but on the other hand a fishless cycle that hasn't really been able to start will look like this too. I know that's not helpful, I'm just thinking out loud.

I also keep having trouble because the "Day X" data is not there (or I'm lazy, lol.) I remember the last time I looked in on this case it took me a long time to determine that in fact it was only really 2 weeks in to the fishless cycle and after I realized that it seemed that the ammonia not really doing anything was fairly normal. I assume fairly much time has passed by now, so it shouldn't still be looking the same.

I also think I remember the pH stayed reasonably high? And the plant coverage is not heavy, right? The ammonia has a kick if you get a whiff?

~~waterdrop~~

It does give a straight 0 in the tap, bright yellow.

The filter is kind of noisy, so I was thinking about replacing it with a canister (since everyone seems to prefer them) and just trying to jury-rig as much of the old media as possible in to it. If the problem is that the water is not getting through the media correctly, hopefully this will fix it.

Ammonia is pretty strong, when it's at 4ppm it's noticeable if you shove your head in, and it takes forever to get the stink off your hands The pH of the tap is high, but once it hits the tank it drops for some reason. it looks like it's kinda wavery somewhere between 7 and 8 after the first few days of adding fresh water. I had done a complete water change to eliminate any trace substances in the water that could be causing the problem, as well as rinsed the substrate.

Barely any plants - 2 crypts. There were a few little unidentified ones, but I removed them (because I couldn't figure out what they were, a friend gave them to me, and I do NOT like mysteries!)

I think I might start doing daily 20% water changes to try and keep the pH higher. Still haven't gotten any bicarb, but that's just my own laziness.

What really gets me is that it is obviously processing ammonia (albeit not as well as it should,) but that nitrites never spike, it just keeps returning to 0. So there must be some nitrite-processing bacteria present. Nitrates build up pretty quickly.

Uriel: From what I gather, plants themselves do not cause problems; It's that LIGHT causes problems, and you need light for the plants The ammonia plus the light will cause nasty algae outbreaks, not to mention that you then have to add nutrients for the plants which is just another number to balance.

 

[Uriel]

The algea isn't an issue. I have a massive snail problem so they eat the algea
I don't really do to many additives when it comes to plants although on WD's advice i been using seachem flourish excel.

 

[waterdrop]

Except in rare heavily planted situations, plants are not a problem to the -cycle- itself, just a problem sometimes for people interpreting their results, that's all. And with only a couple of crypts this is a complete non-issue in this case, so we should drop that.

Its possible that we just have more N-Bacs than I was thinking. It's good that nitrate is seen rising. Do we know know how many days we are on, not including any false starts prior to the simple ammonia fishless cycle?

~~waterdrop~~

 

[kmur]

Everything I have is recorded in the chart, so your guess is as good as mine The "X" means I did not test that thing on that day. I started a week prior to what I was recording, but did not yet have a test kit, so the tank has been cycling since Oct. 20th;

 

[OldMan47]

I will go further than WD here. Plants are never a problem for a cycle. What they are is a factor that makes it more difficult to decide what we are seeing with your chemistry. If ammonia goes away, is it bacteria or plants removing the ammonia? How could I tell? If you never see anything after a few hours of your ammonia addition, you either have enough plants to deal with a high fish load or you have a cycled filter or even you may even have something in between. At that point, why would I, as a fish keeper, care? I am certain that the fish won't care why their water is nice and clear of ammonia and nitrites. Instead they will enjoy water that is pure enough for their needs and is free of those poisons.

The only place where I can see a difference between a cycled tank and a heavily planted tank is if your plants start to fail. When a plant dies it becomes an ammonia source instead of helping you deal with the nitrogen. At that point, a well established filter is far superior to any plant helping you with nitrogen. Instead of being a help, the plant has now become a problem. Under those circumstances only a cycled filter will save your fish.

If you are a well experienced plant person who has decided to branch out into fish, enjoy your silent cycle using plants instead of bacteria to deal with nitrogen. If you are not an experienced and competent plant person, do not allow yourself to be misled by thinking that plants make a good substitute for a cycled filter. For you they will not.

 

[kmur]

I will go further than WD here. Plants are never a problem for a cycle. What they are is a factor that makes it more difficult to decide what we are seeing with your chemistry. If ammonia goes away, is it bacteria or plants removing the ammonia? How could I tell? If you never see anything after a few hours of your ammonia addition, you either have enough plants to deal with a high fish load or you have a cycled filter or even you may even have something in between. At that point, why would I, as a fish keeper, care? I am certain that the fish won't care why their water is nice and clear of ammonia and nitrites. Instead they will enjoy water that is pure enough for their needs and is free of those poisons.

The only place where I can see a difference between a cycled tank and a heavily planted tank is if your plants start to fail. When a plant dies it becomes an ammonia source instead of helping you deal with the nitrogen. At that point, a well established filter is far superior to any plant helping you with nitrogen. Instead of being a help, the plant has now become a problem. Under those circumstances only a cycled filter will save your fish.

If you are a well experienced plant person who has decided to branch out into fish, enjoy your silent cycle using plants instead of bacteria to deal with nitrogen. If you are not an experienced and competent plant person, do not allow yourself to be misled by thinking that plants make a good substitute for a cycled filter. For you they will not.

I am definitely not experienced in either; I'm a jack of all trades and a master of none, I know a little bit about anything but not enough to get my by! The plants that I added at the beginning of my cycle (I do not know what they are, which is a huge problem) began to die right off the bat. I removed dead matter daily and just kind of crossed my fingers that they'd get by. Two or three have survived (they're very small, small enough that I imagine they have no effect on the bioload.) I should really photograph them for identification; The remaining ones are started to get new growth and are looking ok. The two crypts I was given last week that are in there look very heathy; I haven't had them long enough to identify if they're happy or not, but they certainly look no worse off. Everything is rooted. One of some crypts actually has a few bright white and healthy looking roots climbing out of the soil. I think they're confused, but that definitely means some root growth. They're only maybe 4" tall, and while I am of course not an expert, I find it difficult to believe that that is anywhere near enough plant coverage in a 30g tank to process the amount of nitrogen present; But if they are, I can't even imagine how efficient it would be with more. Once the cycle is complete (or I give up after months of frustration,) I intend to have quite a heavily planted tank.

Yesteday, I added 5 ppm ammonia (after getting the same ol' test results, almost double 0.)

Today, ammonia is down to 0.3ppm and nitrite is up to about 0.7ppm. I think I'll go with my plan of slightly larger daily dosing and see if I can't get that nitrite to spike.

 

[kmur]

I want to cry with joy. I think I am actually getting a nitrite spike. Yesterday, I added a much higher amount of ammonia than I had been; I dosed it up to 6PPM. Today, it was at 0.5PPM ammonia, and up to 1PPM nitrite! That's exciting. I think that, instead of letting it fall to zero, I am going to dose it back up to five every morning regardless of what the ammonia is at, since I can't get it to work like a normal cycle. Let me know if this will mess things up - As far as I can tell, it shouldn't; I'll just need to keep a closer eye on my nitrates (especially since I definitely have some nitrite processing bacteria in there after this much time. the nitrated build pretty quickly.)

I'm trying to learn to adapt, since this tank refuses to be normal.

Unless I am going about it the wrong way. It processes from 4PPM ammonia back down to 0PPM ammonia and generally 0PPMish nitrite in 24 hours. That almost sounds like what it's supposed to be doing towards the end of a cycle. Really, I am just confused by all the mechanics of whats going on in my tank. It's almost like I have an almost correct colony of both bacteria, and it just won't go the extra mile. I feel like I might be trying to FORCE a nitrite spike because I feel like that's what I am supposed to be seeing, when that might not be the best choice in my tank. I don't even know anymore.

 

[kmur]

*sigh*

I am starting to think the problem is that my tank is actually just about cycled, and just didn't do a normal cycle.

My ammonia test ran out yesteday (I thought I had a few more days, boo.) I ordered an API master test kit two days ago, but with the holidays, who knows when it will get here. I will just keep dosing 4ppm daily until I get it and hope I don't mess anything up. Will keep testing everything else.

Yesterday? I was super-psyched to have 1PPM nitrite. Thats my all time high so far. Ammonia had done from from 5ppm to .5ppm in 24 hours (not perfect, obviously.) and I had dosed it back up to 5ppm after the testing for the morning.

This morning? ARGH. Nitrite is back down to ZERO! I think most people would be excited about that,but I am 7 weeks in to a cycle and haven't seen a nitrite spike!

I added 2 tsp pure soda bicarbonate yesterday, and that helped out the pH. For the morning tests, it's at 8.0. Nitrate is at 25PPM.

Here's the rundown in non-paragraph form:

12/05/10
Ammonia: 0.5ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
pH: 7.3

ADDED 2tsp BICARB
ADDED 4.5PPM AMMONIA (estimated - 7.5mL for the 30 gallon. I didn't test it again after because I knew my test was super-low.)

12/06/10:
Ammonia: Test was out, could not test.
Nitrite: 0PPM
pH: 8
Nitrite: 25ppm.



This part is less important: Just because things I've been so wonky, I want to write EXACTLY what I've been doing since the start, so that if there was some fatal flaw in my method it could be identified.

October 20th: Set up initial 32US Gallon (long) tank with rinsed sand substrate, light, and filter (Hang-over-top filter - originally with one sponge and one carbon pack. Removed carbon filling from carbon pack, and added an equal amount of straight filter filler-medium. The cottony looking stuff.) Treated water with API Stress Coat, via the "dechlorinate your water" directions. Turned filter on High (rated to 40g.) Added 4ppm STRAIGHT ammonia (used the calculator on the website to figure out that it was about 5.5mL. Actually tested after, figured out that it takes me about 6mL.) Did not do anything else for first week.

Starting october 27th, when test kits came in mail, began testing. Tested ammonia daily. Waited until it dropped down to almost 0 (which occurred for the first time on Nov. 10th.) Since then, have added 4PPM of ammonia every time it dropped to 0.2ppm or less.

11/23/10, decided I wanted to move the tank upstairs. Emptied tank, keeping one 5 gallon bucket of original tank water which I set the filter medium in, completed move and re-fill in about 45 minutes time. Added filter medium back in, powered everything back on, all was well.

Next time it needed ammonia, started dosing 3ppm instead, but every day instead of 'when it gets low,' since what I was going was not working. After about a week, decided that wasn't helping.

Aaaand, that's about where we are. I don't mind that it's not doing what it's supposed to do; I just really want to know WHY. (probably for the best anyhow; I am saving up for a timing belt, so not sure it's be a good time to buy fish )

 

[kmur]

Of course, the second I CAN'T test for ammonia, that's when things start going weird.

Two days in a row now, after adding 4ppm ammonia, 24 hours later I had 0 nitrite. Past results show that generally, when I have low or no nitrite, I also have low/no ammonia. So, I am in theory getting double 0s every day despite adding 4ppm ammonia every 24 hours.

Grr! I can't WAIT until my new test kit comes in so I can see whats going on. Stupid slow christmas season shipping.

Here's the chart for recent times.

My current logic is 'keep doing what I'm doing for another few weeks. If I keep coming up with double 0s, my tank must have cycled behind my back.'

 

[kmur]

*cough* WELL.

I learned a valuable lesson.

If your results seem unbelievable, it's probably because they are not right. I have been using Sera test kits. Since I ran out of the ammonia test kit, I bought an API master kit.

My results are QUITE different on nitrite.

This morning, I tested nitrite with my Sera test kit, and got about .2ppm. Nitrate test gave me 30ppm. pH test gave me 8. I was out of ammonia test, but added roughly 4PPM ammonia anyway as I have been doing daily.

Well, now it is 7 hours AFTER that test. My API test says:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: Greater than 5PPM
Nitrate: 20PPM
pH: 8.2

So I guess I AM in a nitrite spike, and the sera test kit doesn't work at all when it's beyond the thresh-hold of the scale.

.... Uh. I guess the good news is that my tank can process 4PPM ammonia in 6 hours. I will double-check after my morning ammonia-test to make sure that my 4ppm is ACTUALLY 4ppm. My Nitrite test is actually showing the color of 5ppm, but I remember reading somewhere that the API testkit will show that color for anything higher as well.



//edit.

Ok.

I think I have everything figured out, and I think it all makes sense.

I found it unlikely that I had a 'bad test kit.' So, for experimentations sake, I doubled the amount of sample test water, and doubled the dose for the Sera test. After doing that, instead of reading at 0.2, it jumped up to 2PPM.

And then I thought really hard. Because on its own, that doesn't make sense. And then I came up with the answer.

The Sera bottles some sealed. You use the cap to punch a hole in the top. The API bottles come with the holes already punched and uniformed.

With the help of a medicine dropper, I think I've confirmed; The problem is that my water drops were nowhere near uniform size. The Sera test kit requires two different solutions, and if the proportions aren't exactly the same, it causes skewed results.

I am still getting some discrepancy between the two tests. Sera says I have 3ppm, and API says I have 5 or greater. But at least some things make sense now.