KH/pH problem

[YesRushGen]

I have both a 10 gallon and a 20 gallon long tank. Both are 4-1/2 weeks into cycling. The bottom line here is that the pH in the 10 gallon is a stable 7.0, while the pH in the 20 long steadily increases.

I have done all of the tests suggested here and eleswhere. I have tested my gravel, ornaments, and tap water (before and after outgasing). My tap tests with a KH of 2-3dH, and a pH of 7.0, again before and after outgasing for 24 hours. None of my ornaments or the gravel cause a pH rise in a testing environment. (Basically a bucket of fresh dechlorinated tap). btw - I use AmQuel and NovaAqua to treat my tap.

If I do absolutely nothing to counter the pH rise in the 20 gallon long, both the KH and pH will increase over a period of a few days. If I do nothing, it continues to rise. I've never seen the KH go over 4dH, and the pH I've never allowed to get over 8. So far, I've kept it in check via water changes, and VERY TINY TINY amounts of Seachem's (I think that's the company) Acid Regulator. I have no clue how high they would rise if I didn't attempt to counter these effects.

However, in spite of these attempts to keep the KH/pH under control, it continues to rise in the 20 long, and NOT in the 10 gallon!

What do you think about this? The only conclusion I can come to is that the tank itself is the culprit. When I bought my 10 gallon, I completely cleaned it with diluted pure ammonia and rinsed it very thouroughly. The 20 gallon was an older tank that had previously been used as an indoor garden, and therefore had soil in it for a couple years. I only used water to clean the 20, but alot of it! Is it possible that there was some unseen "soil residue" left behind that is the culprit?

I sure appreciate any advice/input!

Kelly

 

[tstenback]

I would not worry at this point in time. Where they are both cycling you will get readings that may not be there when it all settles out. If they are both getting the water from the same place then when this all finishes the PH and hardness in each tank should be similar. If not then it is something in the tank causing the increase, i would guess something left over from the gardening. But as i stated earlier i would not put too much effort into trying to bring this under control until the cycle is finished. HTH

 

[YesRushGen]

Thanks for the reply Terry. So you are suggesting to do nothing at all?

It's just hard to watch it continue to increase day after day. If I do allow it to simply keep rising, at what point will it become an issue for my fish? There are 12 zebra danios and one fancy guppy in that tank right now. ( I didn't know about fishless cylcing before setting up either of these tanks... If I had, that would've been the route I'd have taken - and will take with my 55g)

Thanks again.

 

[tstenback]

The KH getting higher by a small amount is not a big deal but the PH going too far over 8 is a bit of a concern. Probably not too much so for the fish in the tank as they will adapt. But any new additions will have a lot of trouble. I am guessing that your problem stems from what ever was in the tank before. If you can find out what types of chemicals were added to that setup before then you may be able to coounter it. In the meantime water changes are in order if the PH gets too much above 8. i would suggest 10 - 15% every day. to see if you can get this flushed out.

BTW: what are your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings.

 

[YesRushGen]

Ah, the cycle seems to be well underway.

Ammonia reads 0ppm.
NitrIte is currently reads 2ppm. (I do a 30% water change when this approaches 4ppm)
NitrAte currently reads low: 0-5ppm.

If it turns out that the tank really is the issue (seems increasingly likely to me) and needs to be completely cleaned, do you have suggestions on performing the cleaning? My thoughts are to get a completely NEW 20 gallon long (not that expensive), and transfer the contents of the present tank over to the new one.

Just so I'm clear on this, you are recommending that I discontinue the use of the (TINY amounts of) Acid Regulator to counter the rising tendancy of the tank?

Thanks again,

Kelly

 

[tstenback]

I dont think its hurting anything so its up to you. If you feel better adding it then keep doing it.
On the cleaning i usually use vinegar and water or a mild bleach solution to cleen tanks that i get at garage sales and that seems to work just fine. HTH

 

[confusedmanc]

hi,

just curious because i am UK and dont know the products you are using, but acid regulator sounds like its designed to reduce acidity, and thus raise pH?

just a thought

 

[gixer]

was thinking the exact same thing.. why do you want to reduce acidity ?

could well be the problem.

 

[YesRushGen]

Here is a link to the product I'm using:

http/www.seachem.com/products/product_pa...dRegulator.html

My LFS recommended using this product in VERY SMALL quantities, when I told them of my pH and KH tending upwards.

In using it, I think I am neutralizing the effects of whatever is tending my pH upwards. My hope is that eventually all of the pH raising substance (whatever it is) will be released, and using this Acid Regulator will no longer be needed.

 

[Bol]

That product contains phosphate buffers. In general, phosphate buffers will tend to 'drive' the pH to a low number, while carbonate buffers (as measured by KH) tend to 'drive' them up. So, that is the correct product for this situation -- assuming you're ok with adding buffers as a solution to the problem.

The product seems to have an unfortunate name, though. As an 'acid regulator', it 'regulates your pH towards the acidic end', and not 'regulates the amount of acids present', as the name might suggest.

As to its use, personally, I would avoid the use of any buffers until I knew exactly why I was adding them. As Terry mentioned, this may be a temporary situation, and if so, using the Acid Regulator may cause you to end up with a bunch of phosphates in the water, and a lower than desired pH.

Out of curiosity, ...

How often have you been doing water changes? and

when you tested your gravel, ornaments, etc. ... how long did you let them sit in the bucket before testing?

 

[YesRushGen]

Out of curiosity, ...

How often have you been doing water changes? and

when you tested your gravel, ornaments, etc. ... how long did you let them sit in the bucket before testing?

Since I'm still about 4 weeks into cycling, my water changes are dictated by the NitrIte readings. I'm far enough into cycling that Ammonia is consistantly reading zero. On average, about once every 2-3 days, and it's about a 30% water change.

As far as my tests, each individual test case I let sit in a bucket for 24 hours. I figured that was long enough, as the tank itself will raise it's own pH within 24 hours. None of my tests, even with bare treated tap water, produced a rise in KH or pH.

I do agree that I don't like using the Phosphate Acid Buffer without knowing EXACTLY what it is I'm countering. However, I am scared to just "do nothing" because I've seen how fast the KH/pH rises when I do nothing. And that's taking into account water changes! Something has GOT to be wrong with this tank. And adding the phosphate buffer, from what I've gathered, is safer than directly using pH down products. (I've heard those products can literally kill a fish if a drop of it lands directly on one of them!)

Not that it would really help, but are there any kind of "advanced tests" I can do on the tank's water to find out what's causing this rise in KH/pH?

Thanks,

Kelly

 

[Bol]

The only "advanced" test I can think of is Total Dissolved Solids, but to be honest, I'm not sure what that would tell you.

It would seem unlikely that tank residue would still be causing problems after four-plus weeks and many water changes (doesn't it?)

However, from what I've learned, water with a KH of 4 shouldn't even be close to a pH of 8.0 (it should be close to 7.5-ish), so something unusual is obviously happening.