Justfrozen's Fishless Cycle Log

[JustFrozen]

honestly that makes me want to avoid them altogether, at least for a long time while i get more experienced with the hobby.

perhaps i should stick with tetras, and maybe some corys if i end up getting sand. yeah, i dont have the substrate in yet, hopefully that wont be putting too much of a damper on the cycle process. i keep weighing the pros and cons, and cant for the life of me figure out what i want. i definitely like the way sand looks but am worried about cleaning, having still to get used to even using a gravel vac (only done it a couple times so far). then there's color - i like the way the white sand looks but i think since i'm going for a colorful stock, black would be a better choice. gah! decisions! i'll probably just get standard play sand and be done with it, especially if you mention that it needs to be done soon

anyway, back to stocking. i see you mentioned neons - i love them and would definitely be willing to give the rasboras more space for 6 months then add them in, but i read that neons prefer soft, acidic water =/ that combined with them not being the hardiest of fish leaves me too worried.

i've got an eye for xray tetras - maybe they will be a better match.

rasboras get a nice tint sometimes, but i cant help but feel that with those two i've completely missed the coloring i was aiming for

edit: no changes tonight again. if there's any difference in ammonia, it's not noticeable. Does the color not change in the tube if you let it sit overnight? I've let the tests sit by sheer laziness sometimes and they look the same the next day when I wash them out for re-use. Maybe you can compare the results with the previous day that way? Anyway, the only thing I could think of that I could be doing wrong is using way too much conditioner (and maybe no substrate). The tank appears to be sitting at a good 83F, filter going strong with good current 24/7 with additional media donated from a 5 gal.

on a positive note, I got results from my week long test to see what was dropping the pH in my betta tank. it was a sunken ship that i got with the plants. unfortunate, because I rather liked it =/ oh well

 

[JustFrozen]

Not positive about it, but it looks like it might finally be dropping...

 

[waterdrop]

Yeah, its fun to anticipate it dropping and see if you're right. Don't worry, when it starts doing something real, you'll know it. It's not subtle.

I have a small little kitchen minute timer on a neck cord and I find it very helpful so I can keep working when water tests are running. I'm strictly by the minute - I only consider the color to be valid during the few minutes following the completion of the specified timing for the test. But its "hue" and not "contrast" that is being compared between the tube and the card, so its an odd thing you just have to get used to. In a way you can just hold them away from you and sort of say, "hey, its more the character of that color patch." Its also one of those things that gets a lot better after you've had months or years of seeing all the different examples for real, then you really have more of a feel for how different they can be.

Wow, really interesting you were able to positively identify the ship as the culprit. Nice going and something we can remember.

Good work on your stocking plan.. I've got to run at the moment or would comment further. Keep an open mind about the neons/cards as a lot of fish won't mind the overall pH as long as its stable.. perhaps we can talk to OM or some of the more experienced members about these particular tetras in this regard. My own current neons are thriving but I do have soft acid water.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

Day 10
Ammonia = 1.75!
Nitrite = 0.15!

 

[waterdrop]

Ah! Now you're being rewarded for making it to day 10, feels good doesn't it.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

Just let that ammonia ease on down to zero, likely in the next day or two, before dosing back up again. As long as you can measure the ammonia, there is plenty for growing bacteria to use so don't worry too much about the number itself at this point. I think WD already told you that you will intentionally hold the ammonia low during the nitrite spike and then bring it back up to around 5 ppm to finish off the cycling process.

 

[JustFrozen]

thanks for the advice, i'm being patient waiting for it to hit zero but it seems to be slowing down. either that or i'm still reading the tests wrong

Day 13
Ammonia = 0.75
Nitrite = 0.75

the directions say you're supposed to hold the tube against the white background. what i'm wondering is: am i supposed to literally press it against the background? the hue looks a little bit lighter when held slightly away from the card. it always looks a lot more saturated/intense (and darker, including from shadows of the tube itself) when pressed all the way against the card.

 

[OldMan47]

You should not be looking for lighter and darker JustFrozen. You should be looking at the color itself instead. The green, almost a mint green, of the 1.0 is different to the yellowish green of the 0.50. If you see that hint of yellow in the green, it is there whether the color is light or dark in terms of saturation. The clear pure yellow of a zero means there is no green to it. Depending on how you hold the tube against the card it may be a pale yellow or a heavy saturated yellow but if it has any green to it, it is not a zero.
I hope this makes sense to someone besides me. I always try to get enough light at my back and hold the tube against the card. That way the center of the tube looks a lot like the card color and I have less trouble separating light and dark from color hue. I can actually match that center to the card without much interpretation needed.

 

[JustFrozen]

yeah that makes sense. i've probably been reading it a bit off because when its not pressed all the way, it becomes lighter and i mistake that for it being more mixed with a shade of yellow. still, i have been looking for hue, especially recently with WD's advice, i've just not been doing it well i suppose.

i'm still going to go with my latest reading, as the color is bright green with a slight mix of yellowish tint. is it possible for ammonia to just all of a sudden stall like that or did i probably mess up the previous readings?

thanks again for the advice OldMan47, it's been bugging me like every night and I've been filled with worry that I've been messing it up!

 

[JustFrozen]

Day 14
Ammonia = 0.75
Nitrite = 1.0

No ammonia change again. Actually I think it is dropping by .05 or .1 each time, but too hard to accurately measure the difference (or remember the previous hue for that matter).
It does seem slightly more yellow each time, and the nitrite is definitely rising, so I'm not too worried yet.

I am worrying though about the lack of substrate. I got sand to put in tonight but I ended up not liking the color (before I put it in thankfully). I may end up getting gravel after all. Maybe I'll just switch to sand somewhere down the line when I'm a little more experienced. I'll probably pick up one or the other tomorrow night, skipping play sand and just going to the LFS and getting whatever they have =/

 

[waterdrop]

Hi JF, Don't forget there's kinda this great big random number generator at the start If the first fill of a tank contains just one bacterial cell then the division will start out 1,2,4,8,16,32... whereas if there were 100 cells it is 100,200,400,800,1600,3200... whereas if there were 1000 its 1000,2000,4000,8000,16000,32000... and probably the starting number cells could vary from 1 to 1,000,000 easily (I don't know but you get the idea).. so somebody, perhaps you and your neighbors may happen to have nice pure water without many of our particular species of bacteria in it and therefor have a bunch more initial waiting (there are some hours associated with each comma in those series, lol)

Sounds to me like you're probably getting the stage set properly: non-foaming ammonia, 84F/29C temp, your pH is in the optimal range (8.0 to 8.4), surface movement to assist oxygenation, filter media that bacteria like to live on... and we definately see a fair number of cases taking 3 weeks before the first ammonia dosing drops to zero.

Can't make out whether you're worried the substrate makes a difference to cycling or whether its just a separate topic. It doesn't make a difference to cycling (unless it had ammonia in it) other than it usually gets algae on it if you put it in during cycling.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

Hi JF, Don't forget there's kinda this great big random number generator at the start If the first fill of a tank contains just one bacterial cell then the division will start out 1,2,4,8,16,32... whereas if there were 100 cells it is 100,200,400,800,1600,3200... whereas if there were 1000 its 1000,2000,4000,8000,16000,32000... and probably the starting number cells could vary from 1 to 1,000,000 easily (I don't know but you get the idea).. so somebody, perhaps you and your neighbors may happen to have nice pure water without many of our particular species of bacteria in it and therefor have a bunch more initial waiting (there are some hours associated with each comma in those series, lol)

that makes it sound like the ammonia removal should at least be consistent. what i'm worried about is that it started dropping fast but recently it has slowed quite a bit. i've seen in other threads how things like ph or water temperature can slow the process...

Sounds to me like you're probably getting the stage set properly: non-foaming ammonia, 84F/29C temp, your pH is in the optimal range (8.0 to 8.4), surface movement to assist oxygenation, filter media that bacteria like to live on... and we definately see a fair number of cases taking 3 weeks before the first ammonia dosing drops to zero.

...but since those levels are still okay, i can only guess as to what the problem is, if any. i'll take your response as another "dont worry every thing is fine" situation, which is perfectly ok and good to hear

Can't make out whether you're worried the substrate makes a difference to cycling or whether its just a separate topic. It doesn't make a difference to cycling (unless it had ammonia in it) other than it usually gets algae on it if you put it in during cycling.

maybe there is a myth here to debunk? from reading the sticky articles here and your response, i dont see anything indicating the substrate making a difference in the cycling process; however, i've seen mention on other sites and topics here that it also harbors the bacteria similar to the filter media (just not as much). if that were true, wouldn't i be slowing the process by not having more area for the bacteria to grow on?

 

[waterdrop]

maybe there is a myth here to debunk? from reading the sticky articles here and your response, i dont see anything indicating the substrate making a difference in the cycling process; however, i've seen mention on other sites and topics here that it also harbors the bacteria similar to the filter media (just not as much). if that were true, wouldn't i be slowing the process by not having more area for the bacteria to grow on?

There is a difference between things that might assist the fishless cycling process proceed with maximum efficiency vs. things that don't really make a difference. Yes, bacteria do colonize any surface they can get on and yes, they will eventually colonize some of the substrate and decorations and such out in the tank but those areas are much slower to colonize compared to the filter media, due to the high water flow bringing ammonia and oxygen, calcium and iron, into close contact with the biofilms. There is really just no comparison, the filter is where all the action is. The size of biofilms needed have really got to have that steady, significant flow.

Plus, if you think about it, we use this term of "speeding up the cycle" all the time (I certainly use it, like everyone else) but of course what's meant is simply the act of not "slowing down" a fixed time period. The time it takes for the bacteria to multiply and to build their biofilms is set quite firmly by nature. Its just like human babies taking 9 months - the actual number of days is not set in stone but the rough time period really is. There will be a definite "range" (in hours, up to a day or two, can't remember if I've even seen it in Hovanec's articles) that Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira cell division takes for a cell to divide into two cells and although its a range, it can't be speeded up beyond a point.

Yeah, I'm basically just starting the process of trying to help you with the patience thing. If you look across the hundreds of threads, that's really what 90% of these threads are all about.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[JustFrozen]

i've been known to be inpatient AND paranoid lol, two things not really compatible with a fishless cycle, especially the first cycle. all the comments from u regulars have made me feel a lot better though, and i really appreciate it. i hope i havent been too annoying

 

[Mr Bliss]

Since you seem to be interested in the details, this might help explain why you shouldn't worry about the substrate at this point. Both the ammonia-oxidizing Nitrosomonas and the nitrite-oxidizing Nitrobacter bacteria are photophobic. Light doesn't kill them, but it severely limits their ability to generate energy, and they will actively move away from it. Therefore they'll only colonize the substrate layer just below the surface (where they have access to oxygen but no light) where they have very little contact with moving water (and thus do little to reduce the ammonia content of the water column).

Their main significance is in dealing with some of the ammonia released into the surface layer of the substrate from uneaten food, dead plant parts and fish poop, but all that comes into play after you're cycled.