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Is this normal when cycling?

Lcc86

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Apologies its been ages since I started a tank from scratch, am following the guidance on here but not 100% sure this is normal.

I set this tank up on 20/11 and added filter media gunk from my other tank, some flakes (didn't have bottled ammonia to hand) as well as some API Quick Start. From 23/11 I've had pretty consistent ammonia readings of 4ppm and nitrite of between .25 and .5ppm.

Today the tank looks like this, the glass is covered in this film, my plants are going through a melt and everything is covered in brown gunk. Is this normal?

If not, what do I need to do? I haven't tested the ammonia and nitrite today as about to head out for work but not sure if I need to do a water change and clean up this gunk or if that'll delay things? A couple of snails have also hitchhiked from a plant from my other tank, I haven't deliberately added them. Should I leave them in situ?
 

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Your tank is suffering a "nutrient bloom". Whatever is growing, is doing it on excess of nutrients.

Remove the Plants, Rinse them thoroughly and salvage whats good left, put them back in your other tank. Scrape the sides and front glass, Do a good water change, try to suck up most of the decaying matter. Put the light out for a week. continue to monitor ammonia.

If you can add a product like waste control it will help to speed up the ammonia production by accelerating decay.
 
Your tank is suffering a "nutrient bloom". Whatever is growing, is doing it on excess of nutrients.

Remove the Plants, Rinse them thoroughly and salvage whats good left, put them back in your other tank. Scrape the sides and front glass, Do a good water change, try to suck up most of the decaying matter. Put the light out for a week. continue to monitor ammonia.

If you can add a product like waste control it will help to speed up the ammonia production by accelerating decay.
Damn I thought I'd done things "correctly", but no bother, I can temporarily rehome the plants and do a big gravel vac first thing in the morning.
 
Damn I thought I'd done things "correctly", but no bother, I can temporarily rehome the plants and do a big gravel vac first thing in the morning.
Don't worry, Cycling with food is tougher than rocket science. the amount of ammonia rise is unpredictable and the byproduct build much faster. But if you are able to do it without plants in the dark (bio-filter bacteria loves the dark). Your chance of any kind of algae blooming is reduced to nearly none.
 
It’s a bacterial bloom, because you’re using flakes as the ammonia source. Fish food is broken down into ammonia by Heterotrophic bacteria, which is why the cycle takes longer. But it takes a lot… a million of them to do the work of 1 (one) single Nitrosomonas bacterium. So that’s what the bloom is. They double their numbers every day. Do a water change or just leave it. Now that you have ammonia the nitrosomonas will start to grow and out-compete the heterotrophics, and the bloom will die off.
 
It’s a bacterial bloom, because you’re using flakes as the ammonia source. Fish food is broken down into ammonia by Heterotrophic bacteria, which is why the cycle takes longer. But it takes a lot… a million of them to do the work of 1 (one) single Nitrosomonas bacterium. So that’s what the bloom is. They double their numbers every day. Do a water change or just leave it. Now that you have ammonia the nitrosomonas will start to grow and out-compete the heterotrophics, and the bloom will die off.
I already did a water change this morning to get the worst of it out. Haven't checked ammonia since but will do so later. I did have a little accidental overdose of flake where I tipped far too much in a good few days ago so am guessing that may be the cause of the problem. I figured as I'm in no rush I didn't need to buy ammonia but in hindsight it would've made my life much easier!
 
In the UK Waterlife Biomature is a good alternative. It’s “a source of ammonia and other bacterial nutrients”.
 
In the UK Waterlife Biomature is a good alternative. It’s “a source of ammonia and other bacterial nutrients”.
Thank you, I'm gonna leave it now as I've got ammonia and nitrite readings so it's doing its stuff slowly but surely :) Good to know for future reference (although if I buy another tank my other half may leave me lol.
 
I tested water parameters now that I've done the water change (see attached) and seem to have nitrate as well as nitrite. I am a bit confused as I didn't think nitrate was meant to show up until much later in the cycle!
 

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Nitrate will show as soon as you have the relevant bacteria. You added both lots of bacteria when you added gunk from a mature filter. You don’t need to add many, as they’ll double their numbers every day.
 
Nitrate will show as soon as you have the relevant bacteria. You added both lots of bacteria when you added gunk from a mature filter. You don’t need to add many, as they’ll double their numbers every day.
You can tell I'm terrible at this :rofl: I just need to be patient clearly and let nature do its thing now.
 
The cycling article hear clearly states the following:

Fish food or shrimp allowed to rot in a tank will produce ammonia. They will also produce some other nasty looking stuff there is no reason to have fouling a tank. This method does not allow one to have any control over how much ammonia is introduced or when. And rotting food can cause a bacterial bloom (not the bacteria we want) which turns the water very cloudy. We advise against using this to create ammonia in your tank.

I wrote the above and I really should have clarified it a tad more. Flake fish food is about the worst thing one can use for cycling. Here is what the scientist who discovered what were the actual bacteria at work in tanks in terms of cycling wrote on the topic. The bolding and italics are added by me.

Using shrimp or fish food


One of the more popular fishless cycling methods is to buy a few dead shrimp at the grocery store, cut them up into chunks and add them to the aquarium. The shrimp decay, which produces ammonia to feed the nitrifying bacteria. There are a few drawbacks with this method, one being that the hobbyist really has no way to know how much ammonia is being produced by the decaying shrimp, and the aquarium does not look very good with dead shrimp laying on the bottom. Also, the organic material of the shrimp can cause bacteria blooms which turn the aquarium water cloudy. This method works but it takes time and patience and you will probably see a spike in ammonia and nitrite if you add a medium to heavy load of fish after the initial cycling. Note that some people use flake fish food instead of shrimp but this is not recommended because flake food does not have much organic material compared to shrimp and so does not add a lot of ammonia to the water, but you can use cut fish instead of shrimp.

Next, Api does not contain the right bacteria. Most products do not because the Nitrospira which deal with nitrite (and have been diccovered to also process ammonia straight to nitrate) are protected by a patent shared by the above author and Tetra (as a subsidiary whithin the pet division of a large conglomerate). So if you want to use bottle bacteria to accellerate a cycle you really need to use either Dr. Tim's One and Only (the variety for FW tanks) or els Tetra SafeStart or SafeStart Plus. Another method is to take things from an established tank and the bacteria on them to jump start a cycle. The problem with this is that there can also be nasties included which can be unwanted for sure. You need to know the bacteria came from a healthy system.

You can buy ammonium chloride to use forfishless cycling/ One Product is offered by Dr. Tim and another by Fritz Aquatics and is called Fishless Fuel. They should both be available from Amazon.

If you use them bear in mind they measure ammonia using a different scale than most hobby tests. So when they tell you X amount will produce Y ppm of ammonia, you need to myltiply that Y number by 1.28. This converts it to eaual the method most of out test use. So when you flow the directions for either product they tell you that

To bring aquarium to 2 ppm ammonia: Add 4 drops per One U.S. Gallon (3.78 L) or 1 tsp (5 ml) per 25 U.S. Gallons (94.6 L)

The above directions are from Fritz, but the ones from Dr. Tim are the same. However, you will test after adding the ammonium chloride and should actually see 2 x 1.28 or about 2.56 ppm. The amount of ammonia should not exceed 5 ppm according to both sources when using their test scale. But for us that number is actually 5 x 1.28 = 6.4 ppm. You should never get close to that, the max you need to cycle any tank is basically 3 ppm on your kit. If one plans to stock lightly, then a lesser concentration of ammonia can be used.

So you can cycle using their 2 ppm aka your 2.56 ppm. However the fishless cycling instructions here are based on 3 ppm. If you want to stick with them you need to add a bit more than 4 drops/gal. You would need to add 4.8 drops/gal. It will be a lot easier to calculate the total drops needed using this 4.8 number after you multiply the volume of any tank.. You did not post the volume of your tank. So I will use an example.

For a start tanks do not actually hold the amount of water that matches the tank size as advertised. There are several reasons for this. First we never fill the tank to the almost overflowing point, we leave space at the top. Next, every thing we put into the tank means it will hold less water, So substrate, rocks, wood and other decorations mean your tank holds lees than advertised. I ussgest one assume the average tank hold about 85% of its advertised size. It you are going with no substrate you can use 90%.

So use the adjusted volume to determine how much ammonia to add. if your tank is 20 gals and has substrate and some decor it read holds more like 20 x .85 =17 gals. So you would multiply that 17 by the 4.8 above and you would need to add 81.6 drop. 87 would be fine. However, counting drops that high is a PITA. I know that for the Dr. Tim's 1 ml of the ammonium chloride will produce the 2/2.56 ppm when added to 20 gallons (so Fritz should be the same). I would use a whole ml on 17 and figure it gets me close enough to 3 ppm for the directions here to be OK.

As you can see it is a lot easier to add 81.6 and rounding it up that tiny bit to 82 that trying to dose 4.8 drops a bunch of times. You can get something that measures in ml from any drugstore. It is usually a baby dosing syringe (no needle included). I buy disposable pipettes in 1 ml and 3 ml sizes by the box of 200. The caost a few cents each. But I go through them and also give a way 3 of each size and a candy cane to all the members of my fish club who attend our Xmas dinner meeting. ;)
 
seem to have nitrate as well as nitrite. I am a bit confused as I didn't think nitrate was meant to show up until much later in the cycle!
What's the nitrate level in your tap water? The UK allows up to 50 ppm in tap water.
 
The cycling article hear clearly states the following:



I wrote the above and I really should have clarified it a tad more. Flake fish food is about the worst thing one can use for cycling. Here is what the scientist who discovered what were the actual bacteria at work in tanks in terms of cycling wrote on the topic. The bolding and italics are added by me.



Next, Api does not contain the right bacteria. Most products do not because the Nitrospira which deal with nitrite (and have been diccovered to also process ammonia straight to nitrate) are protected by a patent shared by the above author and Tetra (as a subsidiary whithin the pet division of a large conglomerate). So if you want to use bottle bacteria to accellerate a cycle you really need to use either Dr. Tim's One and Only (the variety for FW tanks) or els Tetra SafeStart or SafeStart Plus. Another method is to take things from an established tank and the bacteria on them to jump start a cycle. The problem with this is that there can also be nasties included which can be unwanted for sure. You need to know the bacteria came from a healthy system.

You can buy ammonium chloride to use forfishless cycling/ One Product is offered by Dr. Tim and another by Fritz Aquatics and is called Fishless Fuel. They should both be available from Amazon.

If you use them bear in mind they measure ammonia using a different scale than most hobby tests. So when they tell you X amount will produce Y ppm of ammonia, you need to myltiply that Y number by 1.28. This converts it to eaual the method most of out test use. So when you flow the directions for either product they tell you that

To bring aquarium to 2 ppm ammonia: Add 4 drops per One U.S. Gallon (3.78 L) or 1 tsp (5 ml) per 25 U.S. Gallons (94.6 L)

The above directions are from Fritz, but the ones from Dr. Tim are the same. However, you will test after adding the ammonium chloride and should actually see 2 x 1.28 or about 2.56 ppm. The amount of ammonia should not exceed 5 ppm according to both sources when using their test scale. But for us that number is actually 5 x 1.28 = 6.4 ppm. You should never get close to that, the max you need to cycle any tank is basically 3 ppm on your kit. If one plans to stock lightly, then a lesser concentration of ammonia can be used.

So you can cycle using their 2 ppm aka your 2.56 ppm. However the fishless cycling instructions here are based on 3 ppm. If you want to stick with them you need to add a bit more than 4 drops/gal. You would need to add 4.8 drops/gal. It will be a lot easier to calculate the total drops needed using this 4.8 number after you multiply the volume of any tank.. You did not post the volume of your tank. So I will use an example.

For a start tanks do not actually hold the amount of water that matches the tank size as advertised. There are several reasons for this. First we never fill the tank to the almost overflowing point, we leave space at the top. Next, every thing we put into the tank means it will hold less water, So substrate, rocks, wood and other decorations mean your tank holds lees than advertised. I ussgest one assume the average tank hold about 85% of its advertised size. It you are going with no substrate you can use 90%.

So use the adjusted volume to determine how much ammonia to add. if your tank is 20 gals and has substrate and some decor it read holds more like 20 x .85 =17 gals. So you would multiply that 17 by the 4.8 above and you would need to add 81.6 drop. 87 would be fine. However, counting drops that high is a PITA. I know that for the Dr. Tim's 1 ml of the ammonium chloride will produce the 2/2.56 ppm when added to 20 gallons (so Fritz should be the same). I would use a whole ml on 17 and figure it gets me close enough to 3 ppm for the directions here to be OK.

As you can see it is a lot easier to add 81.6 and rounding it up that tiny bit to 82 that trying to dose 4.8 drops a bunch of times. You can get something that measures in ml from any drugstore. It is usually a baby dosing syringe (no needle included). I buy disposable pipettes in 1 ml and 3 ml sizes by the box of 200. The caost a few cents each. But I go through them and also give a way 3 of each size and a candy cane to all the members of my fish club who attend our Xmas dinner meeting. ;)
I read through that thread before starting, and also some others online as well. I didn't have ammonia so I added the flake and a few bloodworms, lesson learned. My ammonia has consistently read 4ppm since I started cycling on 20/11 so I figured it was okay until the bloom happened. I only bought the Quick Start to see what happened (it was £2.50 so I thought why not), I wasn't relying on it for the cycle, I was more interested in whether it helped. The fact I got 4ppm ammonia the very next day after starting cycling (and this was before the accidental flake overdose) made me think it probably helped to a degree but perhaps it was coincidence. I've also had nitrite since day 3 at between 0.25 and 0.5ppm.

There is so much conflicting information out there about the "best" way to cycle which is why I read a variety of sources, but to give an example, you've cited that shrimps shouldn't be added but there's another thread on here just today where someone said to put a shrimp in to start the cycle (edit - just read your response to that thread now). Sometimes it can all be a little overwhelming!

I'm content to let nature do its thing now, I feel like I've messed it up by allowing the bloom to happen in the first place, my ammonia and nitrite readings have been consistent for a week so I feel like I can hopefully ride it out from here but if nothing changes I'll pick up some ammonia. There are no fish in here and there won't be until I'm happy it's cycled!

Edit 2 - I just want to be sure I'm doing the right thing for the fish that will eventually be in the tank. It's only a 6 gallon for a single betta (who I haven't bought yet obviously!).
 
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What's the nitrate level in your tap water? The UK allows up to 50 ppm in tap water.
I haven't directly tested but my water company's website says 20.1mg/l (see photo). I have another tank and don't get any nitrate issues in there (I test it weekly before a water change).
 

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