Is this grouping an issue

[Olycius]

Hello, I recently filled my 120g with 6 dwarf gouramis(males), all different colors. All of them seem to have gotten along except two. One was a blue dwarf and he would chase and nip a honey dwarf(he was bigger than the blue). About a two weeks ago he became very aggressive towards the rest of them and was nipping at them pretty bad so I removed him to another tank. I placed another smaller blue dwarf in his place and he is getting along well. However the honey dwarf is now nipping at the newcomer and only him. I've noticed it's just when the blue dwarf enters the honey dwarf's territory. The other 4 dwarfs are getting a long very well with no nipping and stay very close to each other. They are all different colors as well.

My questions is, will the honey dwarf go down the same path as the old blue dwarf did and eventually go after everyone? If so, would removing him cause the cycle to repeat with another dwarf within the group? The tank also has 5 guppies, 2 plecos, 2 mollies, and about 12 tetras that get along very well.

 

[Essjay]

Dwarf gouramis are territorial fish and males won't get on, though if you really do have a 120 gallon tank there should be plenty room for them to have their own territories. [If that was a mis-typing and the tank is really 20 galls, that is too small for all but just one male gourami, and also too small for mollies]
Honey gouramis may be called honey dwarf gouramis by some shops but they are a different species.


You have both hard water fish (guppies and mollies) and soft water fish (gouramis and tetras) in the same tank, so one or other will not be happy. Do you know your water hardness? If you don't, it should be somewhere on your water provider's website.

If you could confirm the tank size and let us know the hardness of your water we will be able to advise better.

 

[Olycius]

Dwarf gouramis are territorial fish and males won't get on, though if you really do have a 120 gallon tank there should be plenty room for them to have their own territories. [If that was a mis-typing and the tank is really 20 galls, that is too small for all but just one male gourami, and also too small for mollies]
Honey gouramis may be called honey dwarf gouramis by some shops but they are a different species.


You have both hard water fish (guppies and mollies) and soft water fish (gouramis and tetras) in the same tank, so one or other will not be happy. Do you know your water hardness? If you don't, it should be somewhere on your water provider's website.

If you could confirm the tank size and let us know the hardness of your water we will be able to advise better.

It is a 120g, not a 20g. I also have a whole house water filtration system, so it filters any water coming in(treats and softens water). The last time I did a test it was around 120ppm. All fish are going on week 5 in this tank. I was under the impression that some fish can adapt to different levels of hardness, but will not breed. Is this the case?

 

[fluttermoth]

Many domestic water 'softeners' don't actually soften water; they just replace calcium with sodium so the water behaves as if it's softer, but that actual amount of solids in the water doesn't change. Those kinds don't produce water that is suitable for fish.

 

[Essjay]

Fish are programmed by their DNA to expect a certain level of hardness, that of the water they evolved in. They don't do well in water that is not the hardness they need.

What kind of water softener do you have? If it is the kind that uses salt, that water should not be used for fish as it has too much sodium in it. It is also not good for humans which is why drinking water is supposed to come via a by-pass tap. [Edit - Fluttermoth posted while I was typing!]

120 ppm (6.7 deg hardness) is too low for the livebearers, especially for mollies, which become sick in water that isn't hard enough. They would be fine in unsoftened water. But that hardness is fine for the tetras and gouramis - provided it is not filtered through a salt softener.

20 galls is far too small for more than one male gourami territory. You need to remove most of them before they start to fight.

 

[Olycius]

Fish are programmed by their DNA to expect a certain level of hardness, that of the water they evolved in. They don't do well in water that is not the hardness they need.

What kind of water softener do you have? If it is the kind that uses salt, that water should not be used for fish as it has too much sodium in it. It is also not good for humans which is why drinking water is supposed to come via a by-pass tap. [Edit - Fluttermoth posted while I was typing!]

120 ppm (6.7 deg hardness) is too low for the livebearers, especially for mollies, which become sick in water that isn't hard enough. They would be fine in unsoftened water. But that hardness is fine for the tetras and gouramis - provided it is not filtered through a salt softener.

20 galls is far too small for more than one male gourami territory. You need to remove most of them before they start to fight.

The tank is 120g(454L), not 20g. The softener I have does not use salt, and is in my garage. It is about 5ftx4ft(1.5mx1.2m). It is a kinetico system. I attached how it looks.

 

[Olycius]

Many domestic water 'softeners' don't actually soften water; they just replace calcium with sodium so the water behaves as if it's softer, but that actual amount of solids in the water doesn't change. Those kinds don't produce water that is suitable for fish.

I do have both, one under my sink that does that calcium with sodium switch, and the one in my garage that actually softens the water. The one in the garage does not use salt, so should it be fine?

 

[Essjay]

Sorry, I read your previous post backwards

Provided there are lots of tall decor (plants, live or synthetic) to break up their line of sight, you might get away with multiple male gouramis.


I have looked at Kinetico's website and in the FAQ's under the question "Do Kinetico water softeners add sodium or salt into the water I will drink?" they say that they do use salt. https://www.kinetico.com/customer-support/frequently-asked-questions/#faq-1244

It is up to you whether you believe the claim that they don't add much salt, but they do say that those people who must have a low sodium intake should consult their doctor before drinking this treated water.

 

[Essjay]

I do have both, one under my sink that does that calcium with sodium switch, and the one in my garage that actually softens the water. The one in the garage does not use salt, so should it be fine?

You posted while I was typing.

Is the tap in the garage attached to the Kinetico water softener, and if not, what is the softener that it is attached to? Because the Kinetico softener in your photo does use salt.

If in doubt, use the bypass switch under your sink for non-softened water - but that water could well be too hard for your tetras and gouramis and possibly the plecs depending on what species they are.

 

[Olycius]

Sorry, I read your previous post backwards

Provided there are lots of tall decor (plants, live or synthetic) to break up their line of sight, you might get away with multiple male gouramis.


I have looked at Kinetico's website and in the FAQ's under the question "Do Kinetico water softeners add sodium or salt into the water I will drink?" they say that they do use salt. https://www.kinetico.com/customer-support/frequently-asked-questions/#faq-1244

It is up to you whether you believe the claim that they don't add much salt, but they do say that those people who must have a low sodium intake should consult their doctor before drinking this treated water.

Yes they can use salt, that tub on the side is for the salt, but for my house I did not fill it up. It is optional. Also, I attached how the tank looks. Since that picture 4 more plants have been added. They are all live plants. Should I leave all the fish in this tank or would it be best to split them?

 

[Olycius]

You posted while I was typing.

Is the tap in the garage attached to the Kinetico water softener, and if not, what is the softener that it is attached to? Because the Kinetico softener in your photo does use salt.

If in doubt, use the bypass switch under your sink for non-softened water - but that water could well be too hard for your tetras and gouramis and possibly the plecs depending on what species they are.

All my incoming water goes through the kinetico system. There is only one pipe underneath my sink that uses it's own system that comes out of a different faucet(there is two faucets in my kitchen sink. Everything else is filtered through the kinetico.

 

[Byron]

I concur with what fluttermoth and essjay have posted, so going on from that...I wold get some floating plants. Not that this will change the personality of the gourami, but they do need floating plants and it may help. Individual fish may behave differently (more aggressively, or less) from the norm for a species, and there is no way to alter set behaviours. So a problem fish will be a problem fish, and not likely to change. Returning problem fish, or providing several females to divert their attention, may work. No guarantees. Male gourami are territorial as has been mentioned, and individual fish can take this different ways.

On the water hardness, again essjay has explained it. I would not use any water run through a softener, unless you can ascertain exactly how it "softens." Salt is the usual method, which is very bad for fish. RO (reverse osmosis) is another method, but very expensive and wasteful of water.

Mollies must have much harder water, again this has been mentioned. The source water before it goes through any apparatus would likely be better for them (mollies) but not necessarily for the other fish; mollies really don't have a "too hard" problem, within reason, but they will not last in water as soft as 6 dGH. If we knew the GH, KH and pH of the source water (before any treatment) it would help.

Byron.

 

[Olycius]

I concur with what fluttermoth and essjay have posted, so going on from that...I wold get some floating plants. Not that this will change the personality of the gourami, but they do need floating plants and it may help. Individual fish may behave differently (more aggressively, or less) from the norm for a species, and there is no way to alter set behaviours. So a problem fish will be a problem fish, and not likely to change. Returning problem fish, or providing several females to divert their attention, may work. No guarantees. Male gourami are territorial as has been mentioned, and individual fish can take this different ways.

On the water hardness, again essjay has explained it. I would not use any water run through a softener, unless you can ascertain exactly how it "softens." Salt is the usual method, which is very bad for fish. RO (reverse osmosis) is another method, but very expensive and wasteful of water.

Mollies must have much harder water, again this has been mentioned. The source water before it goes through any apparatus would likely be better for them (mollies) but not necessarily for the other fish; mollies really don't have a "too hard" problem, within reason, but they will not last in water as soft as 6 dGH. If we knew the GH, KH and pH of the source water (before any treatment) it would help.

Byron.

Did a test yesterday:

GH 220ppm
PH 7.0
KH 8

Are these good numbers? The fish I have are as follows:
1 Blue Gourami male
4 Dwarf Gorami male
1 Honey Gourami male
4 Guppies Female
12 Tetras Mix
1 Swordtail
2 Mollies
2 Bristlenose Pleco
2 Other fish(they are yellow and long with their tails outlined a bit red)
1 Snail

 

[Byron]

A GH of 220 ppm equates to around 12 dGH (or dH) [for those of us who prefer the smaller numbers, lol]. The KH at 8, is this also ppm? or dKH? The KH buffers pH, avoiding fluctuations, and the pH at 7 is low for mollies and swordtails (the GH will suffice for these two). The pH might be raised a bit with calcareous substances like crushed coral and aragonite, or dolomite even better if you can find it. In my experience using any of these, the ph went up regardless of a low KH. But if this KH is high (say 8 dKH) it may buffer more. Steven or someone may help with this.

So, depending upon the KH and increasing the pH issues, the water pre-softeners will work for the mollies, guppies and swordtails. Gourami are soft water fish, but these named species might not have issues here, though it's a catch-22 as raising the pH will not be appreciated. Bristlenose the same. The tetras maybe the same, depending upon species; there are a few (Pristella comes to mind) that do well ion water like this, while others will not.