Is This A Ph Stumble? - Update

[pammy172]

Pammy, there is no reason to keep bumping up the ammonia after 12 hours. Just feed it up to 5 ppm once a day. Getting the nitrites where you can watch them strikes me as a good idea, otherwise you will be flying blind. I would not let pH stay below 7.0 during a cycle and the cycle seems to move faster if the pH is way up close to 8.0. I don't think bicarb is able to move it over 7.8 but I may be wrong on the exact number. If you overdose it, you won't really know because the pH will stop going up of its own accord. I would try to not add more than it takes to get to about 7.6, that way you won't overshoot too much.

Thanks for the reply - we are only dosing with ammonia once a day now and have been for about three days now. We popped a spoonful of bicarb in just to give the ph a nudge up and it's now at 7 so all is well.

 

[waterdrop]

Pammy, there is no reason to keep bumping up the ammonia after 12 hours. Just feed it up to 5 ppm once a day. Getting the nitrites where you can watch them strikes me as a good idea, otherwise you will be flying blind. I would not let pH stay below 7.0 during a cycle and the cycle seems to move faster if the pH is way up close to 8.0. I don't think bicarb is able to move it over 7.8 but I may be wrong on the exact number. If you overdose it, you won't really know because the pH will stop going up of its own accord. I would try to not add more than it takes to get to about 7.6, that way you won't overshoot too much.

Wow, that's an interesting paragraph OM47! Are you saying you would resort to crushed coral during a fishless cycle to try and go higher than bicarb could take you if your pH was staying down in the 7's ? -wd-

 

[waterdrop]

Pam,

I think you are worrying way too much about killing the bacteria. The beneficial (chemolithoautotrophic) bacteria is very slow to grow but quite tough and pretty hard to kill. We have numerous reports of members having pH drop down in the 5's but the colony didn't die off and things got back to normal once the conditions were changed.

You are only at about 2 weeks into the fishless cycle it sounds like and you are already into the nitrite spike stage which is pretty fast really. All of your reports sound about as expected.

What are all the stats on your tap water? To me, you sound like a a perfect candidate for the occasional "kickstart" water change during this second stage of fishless cycling. Doing a large water change will get as much of the low pH water out of there as possible, replacing it with the harder, higher pH water from your tap (that has been conditioned and optionally temp matched) and then you can recharge back up to 3ppm ammonia or whatever ppm you are currently doing. If this is your first tank (sorry, I forget!) then these water changes can be a good chance to work out your use of your gravel cleaning siphon technique that you'll use for weekly water changes after you get fish.

Absolutely agree that you should only be doing an ammonia add on a 24 hour mark, not at 12 hours as that pumps too much ammonia into the process.

And by the way, active cycling drives the pH downward harder than normal tank life will. Once you do the big water change and get fish, your pH will stabilize a lot more, assuming you have at least some hardness to the water. The first method of choice to maintain pH will be the weekly water change and if that just doesn't work, then crushed coral in the filter will be the method of choice with fish in there, but that should be a last resort only if needed, as if forces you into more awareness and monitoring.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[pammy172]

WD - many thanks for that reply - really helpful

We are only adding ammonia once every 24 hours.

Been cycling now for 21 days in total so going OK but we did add some donated mature media 14 days ago

Our tap ph is 7 with 0 Ammonia and 0 nitrite. Nice to know it will settle once the cycle is complete. I'll stop fretting now

It's our second tank really - we run an Orb too - not for much longer though, so are used to doing water changes etc

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

 

[OldMan47]

No way I would advocate driving pH high for its own sake. I was trying to give options and trying to warn that an overdose of bicarb could be way over without knowing it if you went too far. The crushed shell / coral is an alternate and more controlled way to move pH that I thought should be considered as an alternative to baking soda. I consider baking soda a pretty harsh approach that I would only use with a fishless cycle. It moves pH way to fast for my liking.

 

[waterdrop]

No way I would advocate driving pH high for its own sake. I was trying to give options and trying to warn that an overdose of bicarb could be way over without knowing it if you went too far. The crushed shell / coral is an alternate and more controlled way to move pH that I thought should be considered as an alternative to baking soda. I consider baking soda a pretty harsh approach that I would only use with a fishless cycle. It moves pH way to fast for my liking.

Good, I think we're on the same page here. You and I see each other's posts all the time so I'm sure you're used to the kinds of advice I've passed along to beginners about water changes, baking soda and crushed coral with respect to KH and pH in the past. I just want to continue to be sure that the advice I pass along also passes mustard (so to speak) with experienced aquarists like you and that I'm not giving bad advice. I've always tried to remind beginners that baking soda is something to mostly limit to the fishless cycling period if used and that one should switch to the crushed coral technique once you have fish but find that water changes will not accomplish what you need in the KH/pH raising department.

Anyway, in the interest of refining this even more, I'm interested in what you're saying about potentially overdosing bicarb. What kinds of negative results might we get from going too high with sodium bicarbonate? I know that rabbut in the past has recommended a more loose approach of dumping a lot in, whereas I was a little more cautious in my recommendations but I'm not really knowledgeable about what an overdose would do! The difference between these bicarbs and calcium carbs seems to be coming back as something I still don't fully understand despite my long thread with monkeybiz over in the scientific section way back when, lol. I think I need to understand bicarbonates better. Anyway, as usual, your insights are always greatly appreciated! -wd-

 

[OldMan47]

My concern was with the idea that it can just be added in lump and it will be fine. While I could add a full box and end up with a pH of about 7.8, it would be a terrible place to be when it comes time for the final water change and you have no idea how much water you need to change to clean it out. I try to do everything in my tanks in moderation so that I always can tell where I am and how I am doing. Rabbut's approach is fine for cycling but where do you go next? If you are aware that you have just enough bicarb to move the pH where you wanted it, and no more, you have a starting point to work from. You can reasonably expect the 90% final water change to remove most or all of the effects of the bicarb. If you dumped in a box full, how many large water changes will it take to get back there? I am sure that I don't know, although I am certain it can still be done.

 

[pammy172]

My concern was with the idea that it can just be added in lump and it will be fine. While I could add a full box and end up with a pH of about 7.8, it would be a terrible place to be when it comes time for the final water change and you have no idea how much water you need to change to clean it out. I try to do everything in my tanks in moderation so that I always can tell where I am and how I am doing. Rabbut's approach is fine for cycling but where do you go next? If you are aware that you have just enough bicarb to move the pH where you wanted it, and no more, you have a starting point to work from. You can reasonably expect the 90% final water change to remove most or all of the effects of the bicarb. If you dumped in a box full, how many large water changes will it take to get back there? I am sure that I don't know, although I am certain it can still be done.

Agreed - which is why for 150 litres we only popped a teaspoon in and then measured again an hour later. It had risen enough so we then left it alone. I am encouraged though that it will settle once cycled. Our Orb runs itself beautifully with regular water changes, the ammonia and nitrite are always zero and ph is steady.

The big tank is looking so lovely. The plants are doing well and we're keen to get some fish in there - but only when the time is right.

Thanks for the really helpful contributions - just what we needed.

 

[waterdrop]

Glad its looking good Pammy --wd--

 

[pammy172]

Well we're still plodding on. Ammonia is clearing but not a move on the nitrite front . ph wobbles a bit every now and then but a dash of bicarb addresses it and keeps things moving.

Not much showing in the way of nitrates either so looks like the nitrite munching colony haven't checked in yet - still on their jollies I reckon.

 

[pammy172]

Well - this evening's readings:

Day 26
Ammonia(24 hours on) 0 ppm
Nitrite 1ppm - yay woo hoo
Nitrate 80ppm - ditto the above
ph 7.6

Looks like the nitrite jollies finally ended just got to hope it keeps on, so next weekend we just might be in fish in territory

 

[OldMan47]

That looks like nice progress to me Pammy. Just stay on top of things and the cycle will be established before you know it.

 

[backtotropical]

That looks like nice progress to me Pammy. Just stay on top of things and the cycle will be established before you know it.

Agreed. Looking good.

Shouldn't be long now Pam. Keep topping that ammonia up.

Can you post up 12 hourly test results from now on?

BTT

 

[pammy172]

Agreed. Looking good.

Shouldn't be long now Pam. Keep topping that ammonia up.

Can you post up 12 hourly test results from now on?

BTT

We are testing 12 hourly and we will try to post shortly afterwards.

This mornings reading were:

pH 7.5
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 40

Ammonia has been zero after 12 hours for the past few days but until yesterday the stubborn nitrite 'spike' just would not budge....until now

omg - I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and i'm reasonably sure it's not a train either

So now it's watch the readings (fingers x'd) for a few days then water change and Robert's your mother's brother!!

 

[pammy172]

Tonight's scores on the doors are:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm

Just as well - I'd hav been well upset if there had been any trace!

Ph 7.5
Didn't bother with Nitrate

Added 7.25ml ammonia

Now finger's crossed the morning's readings are also 0 It's sooooooooooo exciting at last. One thing I can't wait to do is give the tank a really good clean!!