Is It Me, Or Them?

[CEB]

I've been keeping fish for over 25 years, but I'm no expert. I haven't really changed the way I do things in that time, but I'm finding it very difficult to keep things alive; either plants or fish.

I used to have great success, with fish breeding and plants doing so well that I'd have to cut them back and throw them out. In recent years thought, most things I buy don't last long. Fish tend to die within months (with no obvious illnesses), and plants tend to die within a few weeks (they rot and die). Two LFS's have checked my water and found it to be normal.

My 275L tank is mature (10 years) with stable water conditions. The only thing I have in it that wasn't in other tanks which we more successful is some bogwood and I'll be replacing that with rocks later today. I've even resorted to.... a don't really want to say.... to plastic plant (insert sad smilie here)

The only other thing I can put it down to is a drop in the quality of fish and plant supplied by the LFS's over the years. Take plant for example, I bet the use heavy CO2 injection to get the plants grown before selling them, and probably water conditions that boost the plants but would kill any fish. When they're put in a tank like mine, they can't cope with the community tank conditions. As for the fish, maybe they are bred too hard and not hardy.

Anyone got any comments or suggestions?

 

[Tag2008]

Hi,

Ive been the same as yourself I kept fish when I was 18 and now and things seemed different, now at 40 something I don't see half the fish in the shops locally that there used to be.

My plants never lasted but admittedly I never used to pay any attention to the plants I bought and just took home what looked good IMO and I was actually just buying marsh/bog plants that don't last for more than a few weeks in the tropical tank...

 

[Miss Wiggle]

well i do agree with your basic thesis that the quality of fish has dropped over the years. mass farming and in breeding to produce all the fancy long tailed varietes etc weakens the gene pool and as such previously hardy fish like guppies are now a nightmare to keep alive.

Sadly with plants unfortunately the problem is mostly that a lot of fish shops sell houseplants as aquatic plants, they'll live a couple of weeks then start to rot away.

However even with these in mind I find it hard to believe that you can't keep anything alive, for me I would suggest starting right over from basics with the set up and making sure everything is right.

It doesn't sound like you have your own test kit, I'd firstly get a good quality liquid based test kit, only about £15 (look for API Fresh Water Master Test Kit on ebay) and find out what your readings are. Having your own kit and testing regularly gives you the best possible early warning of problems and then the best chances of fixing them.

I would suggest totally stripping down the tank, clean out everything in a weak bleach solution (get the cheapest thin household bleach you can find, stuff with no fragrances etc added, usually asda smartprice range or equivalent, mix it up 1 part bleach to 20 parts water) then rinse and rinse and rinse them.

Start over with new filter media and do a fishless cycle (link in my sig) and then stock with hardy fish and see where you go.

 

[piranha_tim]

First I would be checking the water.
Get a test kit so you can test regularly.
Also test the tap water to see the difference.

1 thing that catches alot of people is water settling.

I.E. Tap water is highly PH and they throw it in the tank changing the tank conditions and then as it settles returns to normal again (this would read normal tank water conditions)

Plus you mentioned you had bog wood ... this could be creating a bigger difference from the tap water as bogwood will drop your PH.

The next big thing is people not knowing if they have chlorine in there water or cloramine (spelling).

 

[CEB]

The plants I bought recently are aquatic, and I have successfully used them in the past, Vallis (which just rotted within 5 days) and Elodia (which looks like it's rotting after 2 weeks). Both of these I had in the distant past and they grew and propogated so much that I would have to cut them back regularly. That was in the days before CO2 (I now have 2 DIY CO2 reactors). Maybe I should change my light tubes for new ones.

To clarify, the few older fish I have are fine, with no signs of disease. It's only the new fish I buy that don't do so well. I have bought catfish (can't remember which), algea eaters, and a few others which all died within a few months. The only success I have had recently is five Neon Tetras of which four are still alive a few months later. Perhaps I should just get another 10 or so.

I do have test kits, but the LFS suggested testing themselves. I have a dip-in-strip kit, and liquid too. I tested one against the other, and they gave the same results. The results are always exactly the same, whether I'm keeping up with regular maintenance or get a little behind. It seems the tank is very stable.

I have thought of stripping the tank down, but that means getting a second tank to house the occupants in the meantime (and with a 1 year old, nothing is safe in the house).

I had asked advice before, and a few people suggested 'old tank syndrome'. I did very frequent water changes as per their advice but it didn't make any difference.

I've seen here a mail order fish supplier that people recommend, and they do plant too. I might give them a try, as I suspect it's down to the supplier, rather than my tank. Maybe I'll go for a wide selection of plants to see which survive.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

on the plants front i think you're right to go with a different supplier, sadly very few standard pet shops carry decent quality plants. greenline do a good package deal where you get loads of different sorts for a cheaper price than buying them seperately. reasonably priced and the plants are good quality.

aquarium light tubes should be changed roughly once a year for optimum plant growth, so it may be time for a change. Vallis does better in harder water IME, could be that your water is mnuch softer than you used to have years ago?

have to say it's screaming old tank syndrome to me as well. what are your test results, saying 'fine' or 'stable' to us doesn't mean anything, can you give us the actual numbers for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate prefereably tested with the liquid test kit.

also can you give us the makes and models of all the equipment that you are using so we can rule out an inappropriately sized filter or something like that?

 

[CEB]

Was writing my post as piranha_tim posted....

My tap water is slightly (0.2 - 0.4) higher pH than my tank water, so I add PH down before adding it to the tank, and of course a water conditioner (Aquasafe) which neutralised chlorine and chloramine.

Yes, the bogwood might be reducing the pH, and so might the decaying matter.

From memory, here are the stats for water tests. I'm going out soon, then coming back for a tank cleanup. I'll do stats before and after that too.
pH 7.4
Nitrate 0
Nitrite <.25 ppm (or is it <25 ppm, anyway, it's one step off zero)
Amonia 0
Chlorine and Chloramine 0
KH - off the scale - we have very hard water in this area.

 

[CEB]

Ah, I can't keep up. Need to type quicker. I think I answered Miss Wiggle's Qs before I saw her post.

Yes, gotta get new lights (although my plastic plants are doing fine lol).

Fine and stable - See figures above, but will measure later (will take laptop down to fish tank). By stable, I mean it never varies. Whether I'm having trouble with the fish or plants, or things are running smoothly, the measurements are always the same.

Will do a full breakdown of my tank equipment later today (unless I run out of time, in which case it will be much later).

 

[Miss Wiggle]

the nitrite is the problem then, even trace levels of nitrite are dangerous. what will happen is it's built up gradually and your existing fish have just got used to it, but any new additions can't tolerate it and die off fairly quickly.

nitrite and ammonia should always be at 0, anything else is highly dangerous.

i don't mean to insult your intellegence as you've obviously been keeping fish for a while, but are you familiar with the nitrogen cycle and what the different levels actually mean? If not have a read of the link in my sig 'whats cycling' which should explain a bit more to you.

next step is to work out why you have this background level of nitrite, it could be one of a number of things

1 - decaying plant/animal matter - so the plants rotting, excess food not being eaten, any dead bodies which were not recovered
2 - underperforming filter - can you give the make and model and details of how you maintain it
3 - overstocked tank - unlikely but can you list all the species you have and how many of each you have
4 - poor maintenance - can you describe in as much detail as possible what maintenance and cleaning you do on the tank, frequency of water changes, any gravel vaccing etc

 

[CEB]

If by nitrogen cycle, you mean the waste matter becoming nitrites, then broken down to harmless nitrates (or whetever), I have a rusty knowledge, but I will check your link to refresh my memory.

Sorry, got my NO3 and NO2 in a muddle. Just done a quick test. Here are the results.
NO3 (Nitrate) 25mg/L
NO2 (Nitrite) zero
GH >16 deg
KH 10 deg
pH 6.8

The pH has changed since my last check, normally it's 7.2. This could be due to the following:
decaying plant matter (apart from the plants I bought recently that rotted, I have some old Java fern is dying off a little)
An 'accident' I had yesterday when I dropped a 1/4 pot of flake food in the tank. I scooped out as much as I could, but it was well mixed in with the water. Hence me taking this afternoon off to clean the tank.
Poor maintenance (it has been too long since my last major mainetnance)
Partly clogged filter cannister. Don't all shout at once, but I use an undergravel filter as my main filtration. The filter cannister I have is just to remove waterborne particles. It's half the flow (I think) that it should be if it was my only filtration.

Will post again this afternoon with maintenance routine, although I'm sure I'm gonna get some stick for not doing it regularly enough. Still, honesty is the best policy.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Will post again this afternoon with maintenance routine, although I'm sure I'm gonna get some stick for not doing it regularly enough. Still, honesty is the best policy.

absolutely

we'll do our best not to be harsh, but we're all adults here lets be honest about it..... if all the fish you add keep dying then there's clearly something wrong, yes it could be poor quality stock but it could also be that you are doing something wrong. the only way to make improvements and get things running well is to admit where mistakes are and then make improvements.

if you're happy to hold your hands up, say 'ok maybe that's not perfect' and do some research and take some action then no-one can fault you.

just to pre-empt your reply if you feel maintenance may not be up to scratch, then there's a link in my sig for that too which will probably help you out.

I'd definately suggest having a read through of that before embarking on a big clean of the tank.

oh also..... do you have a reading for ammonia?

 

[CEB]

Thanks. Really appreciate all your help.

A quick read through, and it seems I'm doing the right thing. Will read that and the cycling part thoroughly before I start.

Better try not to get distracted by any further replies, or I'll be even later going out and will run out of time to do maintenance. lol.

Will get ammonia reading before doing maintenance too.

Thanks again.

Colin.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

GO CLEAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[CEB]

Amonia = 0

Good job, filters!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

good, so we've got 0 ammonia and nitrite, small amounts of nitrate and a usual pH of 7.2 (albeit with a slight unexplain blip at the moment of 6.8).

that all sounds fine so no glaring problems from that.

the filtration/maintenance could still be an issue, await your reply with further details as discussed above.