Is fish-keeping harder and diseases more prevalent now than it was 10 years ago?

[Stoopid_Fish]

This is all really interesting info.

See for me, there I thought there WAS new medication on the market (as much as I knew) due to the sudden availability of it in stores.

It might blow a few people's minds here, but Furan 2, Kanaplex, Ich X, and most of the Seachem meds range are illegal in Australia. I believe API as well. We ship it in and hope it doesn't get nabbed in customs, and the few people who do get it in flip it at 5 times the price on eBay.
A lot of the meds I've seen mentioned online just aren't accessible.

 

[Stoopid_Fish]

What do you recommend then for an appropriate quarantine period? Your opinion on tank size and accoutrement's for an isolation tank would be great as well. The 10g I've been using to medicate simply doesn't seem fair to fish being housed for extended periods.

I thought 4 weeks for a couple of fish in a 30L tank was fine. I'm interested to see what everyone else thought.

 

[Stoopid_Fish]

Medications haven't changed or improved over the last 40+ years. We are still using the same crap treatments they did back in the 70s, and most of the disease organisms have developed some sort of resistance to the chemicals used in the medications.

To make matters worse, people are treating tanks for unknown ailments and throwing all sorts of stuff in their tanks when they don't know what is wrong with the fish. And in reality, most of the time the fish only needs clean water.

Finally, fish aren't as good a quality as they used to be 20 years ago. They are inbred and have new strains of old diseases, as well as a few new diseases (mostly viruses).

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The white spot parasites drop off the fish after a few days. If the fish had white spots on them for 8 weeks and the spots didn't change place or drop off, it wasn't white spot.

If you have persistent strains of white spot, use copper.

Any thoughts on this new strain that's been found? I'll try and find the paper I read about it on. There's just not much info out there on it. But I've seen it a few times in gourami's that have been sold in Australia recently.
Also, what could it be if not white spot?
I recently ordered some potassium permanganate in ras well, as I've heard good things about it. I've never used it before.
Any tips?

 

[Colin_T]

See for me, there I thought there WAS new medication on the market (as much as I knew) due to the sudden availability of it in stores.

It might blow a few people's minds here, but Furan 2, Kanaplex, Ich X, and most of the Seachem meds range are illegal in Australia. I believe API as well. We ship it in and hope it doesn't get nabbed in customs, and the few people who do get it in flip it at 5 times the price on eBay.
A lot of the meds I've seen mentioned online just aren't accessible.

No new medications, just old medications with new names.
There are a few "herbal remedies" that are being sold as fish medications and in my opinion they are snake oil for fish.

Furan 2 was available in Australia back in the 1990s but was prohibited along with most other anti-biotics because it was being used inappropriately and lead to drug resistant bacteria that kills people, animals, birds, fish and reptiles.
Kanaplex is another anti-biotic but was never made available to the fish industry in Australia.

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Any thoughts on this new strain that's been found? I'll try and find the paper I read about it on. There's just not much info out there on it. But I've seen it a few times in gourami's that have been sold in Australia recently.
Also, what could it be if not white spot?
I recently ordered some potassium permanganate in as well, as I've heard good things about it. I've never used it before.
Any tips?

Never heard of a new strain of white spot that lasts for 8 weeks.

I have never used potassium permanganate and most people haven't used it since the 1970s.

 

[663]

I thought 4 weeks for a couple of fish in a 30L tank was fine. I'm interested to see what everyone else thought.

Thanks, SF. I've read that some folks prefer a minimal amount of non-biological substrate, non-chem filtration (carbon or a replacements like Seachem Renew) to avoid removing meds, subdued lighting on a tightly attached canopy and very limited decorations. I'll pick up the tank next weekend and other parts of the kit that seem appropriate thereafter. Yup, all suggestions will be welcomed and considered. I wanted to show you guys my favorite fish. Though I only have the BR parrot 9in, Lord Mickey, now. For perspective my coconut is about 26ins around. The rescue pacu, Alice, was just over 18in when I had to rehome her.

 

[PheonixKingZ]

I have only been keeping fish for around 6 years and I’m young enough as it is.

I can imagine it would be tougher because of the new diseases, just like in humans.

 

[mcordelia]

I've been watching this thread for the past couple of days, and found everyone's perspectives really valuable. I had been wondering the same myself, I was active in fish forums in the early 2000's and am now just getting back into the hobby, and it seems like the "fish emergency" section of the forum is much more out there than it was back in the day. Whether that speaks to use of the internet or other factors that I'm not accounting for, who knows, but it certainly did result in me having that same thought.

In my old life, I had to deal with fish illness once, it was a mild case of ich that claimed one fish and two recovered from, but out of 20 fish in the tank it did not seem to spread like wildfire, and I think all I did was some salt and a temperature change, that was it. I also remember that back then, recommendations were to do anywhere between weekly to monthly 20% water changes, and the idea of doing 50% every few days was practically unheard of, unless you had some kind of crisis going on in your tank. Again, I don't know if that was just the crowd I hung out with back then, but it does seem like a lot has changed. Some stuff for the better, some things unfortunately for the worse.

On a related note, to avoid such problems with fish, how does one evaluate or even inquire about reputable fish sources? I assume my local LFS knows what they are doing/knows who to source from since they seem really knowledgeable and good otherwise, but at the end of the day, is it even possible to be a responsible consumer on this topic?

 

[663]

One of the more irritating things I've learned recently is that local chains have little to no idea what their suppliers do to ensure the health of the animals they sell. In fact they seem to view these creatures as inert SKU's (Stock-Keeping Units) and nothing more. The old mom and pop shops around Chicagoland don't appear the exist any longer.

 

[Retired Viking]

I still have one old mom and pop store near me but there are very few left in most cities within a few hours drive. My LFS does a decent job but the Petco and Petsmart stores have most of the business around here. I have been fish keeping on and off since the mid 80s and I have to agree with others about how most fish seem today, sad. We do know more about how to take care of them better and there is far more info out there but some of it is not good info.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

I think you're right about inbred and poorly treated stock. Not sure about new diseases, but it makes sense.

To me, this is more than offset by the wealth of great information currently available. Up until the internet exploded in the late 90s, I tried to get along with a mix of trial-and-error and memorizing the one, cheesy, little "how to keep an aquarium" book at the library (which left out such minor details as the nitrogen cycle and fish aggression/compatibility). I would also add the importance of online shopping: If I can pay for a certain piece of equipment (or almost any fish), I can get it, instead of being at the mercy of whatever the tiny, struggling local pet store had in stock.

Overall, I'd say that being a good fish keeper is far easier today.

 

[seangee]

On a related note, to avoid such problems with fish, how does one evaluate or even inquire about reputable fish sources? I assume my local LFS knows what they are doing/knows who to source from since they seem really knowledgeable and good otherwise, but at the end of the day, is it even possible to be a responsible consumer on this topic?

Unless you find a local society or breeder chances are all the fish are sourced from the same wholesalers / importers. I recently discovered that my local Maidenhead Aquatics (UK chain) actually supplies a lot of the smaller independent stores. In the old days (by which I mean last year ) I'd wander around fish stores looking at the state of their tanks and stock. Almost all of the fish I bought this year for my new tank were bought online. I did check on reviews etc but figured buying direct from a wholesaler was at least cutting out one step in the supply chain. Not had any problems but I only use one supplier and made sure that it was a specialist supplier and they do a good job of packaging and shipping - that does cost though.

 

[663]

I think you're right about inbred and poorly treated stock. Not sure about new diseases, but it makes sense.

Considering the essential nature of the threats complex lifeforms on this planet have, and do face, it's always just a matter of time. For instance, once Covid-19 is done, if it ever truly is, there WILL be something else to plaque us. I doubt I'll live long enough to see them but the massive potential benefits of phage and CRISPR research could change the nature of life. I know "pie-in-the-sky", but hope does spring eternal, right?

In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a supplier that cares deeply about the animals it sells.

 

[Colin_T]

Considering the essential nature of the threats complex lifeforms on this planet have, and do face, it's always just a matter of time. For instance, once Covid-19 is done, if it ever truly is, there WILL be something else to plaque us. I doubt I'll live long enough to see them but the massive potential benefits of phage and CRISPR research could change the nature of life. I know "pie-in-the-sky", but hope does spring eternal, right?

In the meantime, I'll keep looking for a supplier that cares deeply about the animals it sells.

We have had 5 or 6 new viruses in the last 20 years, so the next virus will probably pop up just after covid19 is hopefully dealt with next year.

The eastern Europeans (Russia, etc) have been working with phage viruses for decades and use them to treat drug resistant bacterial infections. It's just a pity western society hasn't followed and has left it up to pharmaceutical companies, who haven't made any new anti-biotics for 30 years.

 

[seangee]

Considering the essential nature of the threats complex lifeforms on this planet have, and do face, it's always just a matter of time. For instance, once Covid-19 is done, if it ever truly is, there WILL be something else to plaque us.

We have had 5 or 6 new viruses in the last 20 years, so the next virus will probably pop up just after covid19 is hopefully dealt with next year.

Maybe cynical but is there a darker side of the coin?
As a species we have devoted so much to preserve and increase the population in a world that is already seriously over populated to the point that resource demand exceeds (sustainable) capacity. Could it just be nature's / God's / the planet's (delete as you deem appropriate) way of balancing the books? If this is the case the balance has been tipping away from homeostasis for decades and the counter measures are likely to become more extreme to try to restore the balance.

Anyone remember Conway's game of life?

 

[Colin_T]

Maybe cynical but is there a darker side of the coin?
As a species we have devoted so much to preserve and increase the population in a world that is already seriously over populated to the point that resource demand exceeds (sustainable) capacity. Could it just be nature's / God's / the planet's (delete as you deem appropriate) way of balancing the books? If this is the case the balance has been tipping away from homeostasis for decades and the counter measures are likely to become more extreme to try to restore the balance.

Whenever you overpopulate any species, you risk diseases popping up. It happens in aquariums, aviaries, and cities with humans.

The big issue is that most governments around the world, and most people, want to keep the population growing. The US government encourages its people to breed in an attempt to get another Einstein. They think another Einstein will save the world. That won't happen when idiots are breeding with idiots (no offence to our US members).

The Australian government and in particular the Australian treasurer wants exponential growth from people so the economy grows. He's a moron by the way, who has no idea about exponential growth. You simply can't have exponential growth in anything without it eventually collapsing.

Exponential growth in the human race means too many people and not enough resources. Then you get wars and disease, climate change and eventual collapse of society. It's happened before with the Mayan and numerous other civilizations that were around eons ago. They breed up and use up all the resources in the area. They chop down all the trees to grow crops and bang, climate change. Their crops fail, drought and disease occur. The people in the cities leave and find somewhere else to live. The only difference between then and now is back then only a small area was affected. Now the entire planet is affected. We don't have anywhere to run to when the stuff hits the fan.

The Earth was designed to hold x amount of animals, and plants grew to balance things. Every time another person appears, it puts more pressure on the remaining animals. Every time we chop down trees, it puts more pressure on the animals and the environment. Eventually it will go bad and there is going to be death like nobody has seen before. This is just the start of it and when it goes south, there won't be anybody left to talk about it.