Introducing Fish; need help on what order to introduce in

[Ragene Pinson]

I'm doing a 65 gallon planted tank and am currently in the midst of my Fishless Cycle. The plants are in the tank currently. I'm now getting together notes and information on the order I want to introduce my fish. I plan to add a few at a time to ensure that I don't introduce an overload of ammonia into my tank too quick. I'm trying to determine which species I should add first and which to add last. My tank will have, Mystery Snails, Kuhli Loaches, Orange Laser Corycats, Roseline Sharks, and Angelfish. Angelfish are my main focus, the snails, loaches and corys are primarily for tank clean up as needed (and I will be feeding them additional food as well) and the Roselines are for the movement of schooling fish. What order would you introduce these species?

 

[Natalie1094]

I love your aquascape! Not sure about which order to put these in so I'll leave that to the experts, but I'm pretty sure that snails and loaches aren't compatible, as the snails will get eaten by loaches. I know this is true with larger loach species but not sure if it applies to kuhlies aswell. I'll let someone with more experience confirm whether this is correct though

 

[Ragene Pinson]

I love your aquascape! Not sure about which order to put these in so I'll leave that to the experts, but I'm pretty sure that snails and loaches aren't compatible, as the snails will get eaten by loaches. I know this is true with larger loach species but not sure if it applies to kuhlies aswell. I'll let someone with more experience confirm whether this is correct though

I had read that Kuhlies and Mystery Snails could be together; but I'd love to know for sure.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Pangio semicincta (Kuhli) should not eat snails. Here is what seriouslyfish.com says about their diet in an aquarium:

Diet​

Chiefly a micropredator sifting mouthfuls of substrate through the mouth and gills from which insect larvae, small crustaceans and suchlike are extracted with a proportion of the natural diet also likely to comprise organic detritus and plant material from the gut contents of prey.

In the aquarium it will accept sinking dried foods but should also be offered regular meals of live and frozen Daphnia, Artemia, bloodworm, micro worm, grindal worm, etc.

If you are doing a cycle for bacteria in a planted tank, you should not need to introduce fish gradually if you have done it all properly.

Next, angels tend to pair and then spawn. If this happens in your tank, you may wake up one day to all the other fish cowering at one end of the tank and the angels will be the reason for this. They are good parents and do not tolerate fish which see eggs, wigglers and fry as luncheon items.

Trying to cycle a planted tank is much trickier to do than the normal fishless cycle with no plants involved. The rrason for this is simple. A fishless cycle involves ammonia-->nitrite-->nitrate. Plants also use ammonia, but they do not produce nitrite or nitrate. So you need to test in a different way to know what it going on in a tank.

If I can ever get is done, I am working on another "cycling" article which deals with planted tanks and/or seeding bacteria to accellerate a cycle.

 

[Ragene Pinson]

Pangio semicincta (Kuhli) should not eat snails. Here is what seriouslyfish.com says about their diet in an aquarium:



If you are doing a cycle for bacteria in a planted tank, you should not need to introduce fish gradually if you have done it all properly.

Next, angels tend to pair and then spawn. If this happens in your tank, you may wake up one day to all the other fish cowering at one end of the tank and the angels will be the reason for this. They are good parents and do not tolerate fish which see eggs, wigglers and fry as luncheon items.

Trying to cycle a planted tank is much trickier to do than the normal fishless cycle with no plants involved. The rrason for this is simple. A fishless cycle involves ammonia-->nitrite-->nitrate. Plants also use ammonia, but they do not produce nitrite or nitrate. So you need to test in a different way to know what it going on in a tank.

If I can ever get is done, I am working on another "cycling" article which deals with planted tanks and/or seeding bacteria to accellerate a cycle.

Thank you so much for the great reply.. this helps a lot. I started my cycle about two weeks ago using Fritz Fishless Fuel and started with bringing it to 3ppm ammonia with that. I used Fritze TurboStart 700 for bacteria. My ammonia slowly went down and my nitrites went up and my nitrates went up as well. A couple days later I tested and my ammonia and nitrites were zero and my nitrates were around 40. At that time I did a 30% water change to bring nitrates down. After that I brought ammonia back up to 2ppm. It took 24 hours for the ammonia to get back to zero and the nitrites took 48 hours to be back at zero again; and nitrate went to 30. I've added ammonia last night and brought it back up to 2ppm; I plan to test again this evening and see if the ammonia and nitrate has gone to zero overnight.

 

[Byron]

Lovely tank, nice work. We do have some issues though.

First, we need to know the parameters of your source water in order to recommend suitable fish. The GH (general hardness) and pH are the two more important. If you don't already know these, the information might be on the website of your water authority.

Second, this is a 65g but what are the length and width? Some of the fish you are intending need more space for swimming than some others.

Angelfish are problematic. As another member already noted, if you have a male and female they will likely spawn, with consequences. But what I want to explain is that this is a shoaling/schooling species, which means it needs a group. I already asked for the tank dimensions, there may well not be space here for a workable group. And two, three or four angelfish is really taking a risk. This fish forms an hierarchy within the group, and if one of these should be dominant it can result in dead angelfish because there is no room in this tank for escape. A male/female "pair" must select one another from a group; any male and any female, even if you were lucky enough to acquire this, may not last long if they do not bond.

A "Roseline shark" is the species Sahyadria denisonii which being a cyprinid (in the barb group) is a shoaling/schooling fish and requires which must be in a group of at least eight, preferably more, to avoid aggressive problems. And it attains six inches, and needs room to swim "lengths." The tank length again.

Compatibility/Temperament: Generally peaceful, but should not be kept with smaller fish that will likely be seen as food. It's water flow and cooler temperatures limit suitable tankmates to medium-sized barbs and danios, loaches, Garra and Devario species. Must be kept in a group, minimum 8; reports of aggressive behaviour are most probably due to the fish not being maintained in a sizeable group.​

It is not suitable to b with angelfish, so regardless of the other issues already mentioned, these two cannot be in this small (to the fish) a tank. The barb is also cooler water.

Corydoras and loaches should never be housed together. This is more of an issue with the "botine" loaches, but even so, I would not do this. Corydoras being needful of as large a group as feasible will also fill the substrate space. Another cory issue though is the substrate, they need soft sand. I cannot tell from the photo, but if the substrate is gravel, it is not good for cories because they cannot filter feed and there are frequently bacterial issues. Sand avoids all this. If it is gravel, a better bottom choice would be one of the botine loaches, also a group, but they are more "visible" than kuhlii (by the way, kuhlii should also have sand, they bury themselves in it). Botia kubotai in a group of 7-9 would be lovely here. Suited to the roselines, though tank length needs to be considered.

As for bottom cleanup fish, these really don't exist. The high-protein foods you would feed upper fish are detrimental to cories if they are chosen. We can talk about foods later.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Welcome! This is a nice looking scape!

Some good advice here. Here's my two cents worth:

65 gallons, whatever the dimensions, is really too small for angelfish. I've kept a single one in a 30 gallon and he was "OK," but they are a highly intelligent, highly social but semi-aggressive fish that needs a group of at least five and room to get away from each other. I currently have five in a 150 gallon, and that is about right. The difference in their behavior is amazing from keeping them in a smaller tank. I would personally never keep them in anything smaller than a 100g again.

Roseline sharks (I usually call them denison barbs) can get fairly big (although six inches would be an exceptional one; 4-5 inches is more normal), and they are active schooling fish, as Byron mentioned. They need to be in a group, with lots of room so swim. Knowing your tank dimensions would help. Looks like this is a fairly shallow, breeder-type tank with a square footprint? That might work OK. If not, there are many similar looking, slightly smaller schoolers that would work.

Kuhli loaches won't hurt mystery snails, but most of the botia type loaches will. Mine seldom if ever buried themselves in the sand, but they do absolutely require lots of crevices and leaf litter to hide out in. They would certainly find this in your tank. I think they'd be fine with cories (again, that's more of a problem with the botia loaches), but you won't see them often. If it were me, I'd ditch them and just get cories, or a different kind of loach that will be out in the open more and thus more fun to watch. A big group of dwarf chain loaches would be really fun, but they're expensive. Zebra loaches are less expensive and also fun (and they like to talk to each other at feeding time), but they might go after your snails.

So, if it were me, I'd ditch the angelfish idea and go with a big school of dennison barbs, ditch the kuhlis and get a a big school of cory cats (or loaches), a bunch of amano shrimp to keep your plants clean (much more fun than snails, IMO).

Back to your original question: If you do get angelfish, which I don't advise, I would ditch the denison barbs, get baby angels so they can grow up together, add them last so you aren't adding new fish to an established school of angels, and plan to eventually remove all but the mated pair that will probably develop.

 

[Ragene Pinson]

Lovely tank, nice work. We do have some issues though.

First, we need to know the parameters of your source water in order to recommend suitable fish. The GH (general hardness) and pH are the two more important. If you don't already know these, the information might be on the website of your water authority.

Second, this is a 65g but what are the length and width? Some of the fish you are intending need more space for swimming than some others.

Angelfish are problematic. As another member already noted, if you have a male and female they will likely spawn, with consequences. But what I want to explain is that this is a shoaling/schooling species, which means it needs a group. I already asked for the tank dimensions, there may well not be space here for a workable group. And two, three or four angelfish is really taking a risk. This fish forms an hierarchy within the group, and if one of these should be dominant it can result in dead angelfish because there is no room in this tank for escape. A male/female "pair" must select one another from a group; any male and any female, even if you were lucky enough to acquire this, may not last long if they do not bond.

A "Roseline shark" is the species Sahyadria denisonii which being a cyprinid (in the barb group) is a shoaling/schooling fish and requires which must be in a group of at least eight, preferably more, to avoid aggressive problems. And it attains six inches, and needs room to swim "lengths." The tank length again.

Compatibility/Temperament: Generally peaceful, but should not be kept with smaller fish that will likely be seen as food. It's water flow and cooler temperatures limit suitable tankmates to medium-sized barbs and danios, loaches, Garra and Devario species. Must be kept in a group, minimum 8; reports of aggressive behaviour are most probably due to the fish not being maintained in a sizeable group.​

It is not suitable to b with angelfish, so regardless of the other issues already mentioned, these two cannot be in this small (to the fish) a tank. The barb is also cooler water.

Corydoras and loaches should never be housed together. This is more of an issue with the "botine" loaches, but even so, I would not do this. Corydoras being needful of as large a group as feasible will also fill the substrate space. Another cory issue though is the substrate, they need soft sand. I cannot tell from the photo, but if the substrate is gravel, it is not good for cories because they cannot filter feed and there are frequently bacterial issues. Sand avoids all this. If it is gravel, a better bottom choice would be one of the botine loaches, also a group, but they are more "visible" than kuhlii (by the way, kuhlii should also have sand, they bury themselves in it). Botia kubotai in a group of 7-9 would be lovely here. Suited to the roselines, though tank length needs to be considered.

As for bottom cleanup fish, these really don't exist. The high-protein foods you would feed upper fish are detrimental to cories if they are chosen. We can talk about foods later.

My 65g is 36x18 and 24 tall.

Water is a well. My ph is high… around an 8.0-8.2 currently

 

[Byron]

My 65g is 36x18 and 24 tall.

Water is a well. My ph is high… around an 8.0-8.2 currently

Can you ascertain the GH of the well water? This is more important for fish than pH, within reason.

On the dimensions, these do eliminate angelfish and the "roseline" barbs, the former because of spacial territory and the latter because of swimming activity.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

You can keep a pair of angels in that tank, However, the choice of tank=mates gets trickier. I kept my first angels in a 45. I was given 6 to grow out, lost one along the way and when I got a pair and I moved out the other three. And then they spawned, and the first time was about 500 eggs. And despite loving the angels, I did not want to deal with their fry in those numbers.

They did really go after everything else in the tank when the went into spawning mode. So in the end i kept no angels until I felt skilled enough to try Altums. Extremely difficult to spawn in captivity. I currently keep 5 in a 55.

I have also had roselines in at least one of my tanks for the last 17 years or so. My first try was in a 46 and that was really too small. They graduated to a 75. Today the are in a 150 with clown loaches. I have kept mine at temps too warm for them. This shortens their lifespan some. I get them small and they live about six+ years that way.

So most of what was said by others above is absolutely correct. If you are dead set on angels, you can try two max., imo, and then I would do something on the bottom of the tank. Maybe a group of one of the bigger corys and a pleco . Angels should leave these bottom feeders alone. You can find corys and a pleco which are compatible with the conditions angels would like. The reason I think this should work is the fact that a longer tank might be better, the 17 inch width helps. Then the fact that angels are not often on the bottom of a tank will minimize encounters.

As mentioned I would get the angels small, except I would only get two. There are then only three possibilities 2 males, 2 females or one of each. A pair will likely spawn. Two females should get along with no males and two males might also be OK as there is no female over which they might fight. This assumes you are not wanting them to spawn but could live with it if they do.

As for finishing the cycle, you do not need 3 ppm of ammonia being added. it is too much. can harm the plants and is not needed. Cut the dose in half. When the tank can produce 0/0 for ammonia and nitrite in 24 hours or less, you are cycled. That will be safe especially if you get all the fish at smaller sizes and have them grow up in the tank. As they grow so will the plants and the amount of nitrifying bacteria.

Add them all at once if they come from the same source. That way you never need a Q tank for this stage of your fish keeping adventure. And if these is a disease etc. with the fish, since they all came from the same place they all will need to be treated. So your tank serves as the hospital for all of them. And if one is infected with something, they are all likely at risk.

edited for spelling typos and punctuation

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Zebra loaches are less expensive and also fun (and they like to talk to each other at feeding time), but they might go after your snails.

I have a real soft spot (and longing to have a big group of!) the botiid loaches, please tell me you have video of this happening! I really want to see!

 

[Byron]

Just a caution, be careful using common names for loaches. I have seen two species called "Zebra Loach" and they are as different in size and behaviour as day and night. @WhistlingBadger can tell us which species he referred to, but I am going to make an assumption it was Botia striata,
for which other common names include Thin Lined Loach, Striped Loach, Yellow Lined Loach; Tiger Loach must not to be confused with the true tiger loaches of the genus Syncrossus. The latter are very rough fellows.

B. striata is an avid snail and snail egg eater, not all of the loaches in this genus are to varying degrees. It must be kept in a group of at least 5 or 6, otherwise some members may be relentlessly picked on and succumb to stress and injury.

 

[WhistlingBadger]

Just a caution, be careful using common names for loaches. I have seen two species called "Zebra Loach" and they are as different in size and behaviour as day and night. @WhistlingBadger can tell us which species he referred to, but I am going to make an assumption it was Botia striata,

Yes, that's the one I was referring to. Thanks for the clarification.