If I were to use water direct from well.....

[thrujenseyes]

Hi Jen,

Sorry to hear of your problems. Hmm.

I am no expert, but I am wondering....what if you did NOT change 50% water each week? Since you have so few fish and plenty of plants, maybe just a small water change and not as often?

Just thinking out loud.

Mark

Mark, I'm totally wondering the same thing myself! I think tomorrow (water change day) I'll do 30% and see.
Not that I have enough fish to tell if they're affected but .....
I'll give it a whirl.
I honestly don't think I need to do 50% because my numbers don't rise as the week goes forward.
Thanks

 

[Byron]

The volume of the water changed should not matter unless the fresh water is significantly different from the tank water in a negative way, such as parameters, or ammonia/nitrite/nitrate high, etc. And if there are such variables, this is a problem whatever the volume. In the earlier parts of this thread there was a lot of discussion over this.

Also, are numbers for GH, KH and pH remaining the same in the tank water from day to day and week to week, or is there variation? Same goes for the nitrate.

 

[thrujenseyes]

The volume of the water changed should not matter unless the fresh water is significantly different from the tank water in a negative way, such as parameters,

True and right now...it is, well...the ph anyway. (see below)

if there are such variables, this is a problem whatever the volume.

Which makes me think I should go back to tap mixed with distilled? At least the PH will be closer.

Also, are numbers for GH, KH and pH remaining the same in the tank water from day to day and week to week, or is there variation? Same goes for the nitrate.

The tank remains stable thru out the week. Although it's probably being shocked during water change...I will test that tomorrow afterwards.

Todays tests results:
Mix of Tap and Well:
API:
ph: 6.4
amm: 0
nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 5. ppm

Tetra6in1 strips:
ph: 6.2-6.8
kh: 0-40
chlorine: 0
gh: 75
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 10ppm


Tank (6 days after last water change):
API:
ph: 7.6
high ph: 7.8
amm: 0
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 5.ppm

Tetra6in1 strips:
ph: 6.8-7.2
kh: 40-80
chlorine: 0
gh: 75-150
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 10ppm

You can see the PH swing is big!

Edited after remembering something that was mentioned months ago:

I'm in no way suggesting the 'bag in the filter' method. I am suggesting it be pre-dissolved elsewhere before being added to the straight well water... which would then be added to the tank. (With such a small tank, this is the best way, as I see it to keep things stable. Small volumes of water will vary wildly much more than larger ones... so this method I'm proposing would be effective to stabilize everything in the 'sweet spot'.)

Should I try adding the bag of crushed coral to my water that sits out before water change (instead of keeping it in filter)?!
I'd taken it out of filter then lost a bunch of fish and my sunkist shrimp so I put it back.
.....so this testing had the bag in tank from about two weeks ago

 

[Byron]

You should not be adding any crushed coral period, with soft water fish. The Boraras will not appreciate it. I'm not saying this is what did them in, but they are sensitive fish (the smaller a fish species the more delicate its physiology, aside from other factors) and such pH swings right after being introduced to a new environment after the considerable stress of capture/shipping/netting will be more difficult on the fish.

I am assuming the problem here is trying two different-requirement organisms in the same tank--the fish that are soft water and acidic water, and the shrimp that need moderately hard water. If you want the Boraras, keep them in straight well water; it has low GH and pH is ideal.

I have used crushed coral and it can send the pH soaring, but has no effect on GH/KH.

I would stay with the normal range pH test, the high is only going to confuse things as the high range usually has different numbers from the normal. And the source water is in the normal range.

 

[thrujenseyes]

You should not be adding any crushed coral period, with soft water fish

I had actually taken it out while the boras were in there (and they all had passed as well as my sunkist shrimp).
I only added back after I'd lost 5 boras and the shrimp as I got scared.

I would stay with the normal range pH test, the high is only going to confuse things as the high range usually has different numbers from the normal. And the source water is in the normal range.

I didn't realize they were much different? I only tested in the high range because the color blue in the api ph test was the darkest one possible.

It seems my tank always winds up having a high ph....well around 7.6 no matter what the water going in is.
And looking back on my notes it's been that way since last september (a year).

As of right now, I'm not sure which way I should be heading.
Do I try to use just my well and keep soft water (but I may lose shrimp and snail)?
Or do I work with what my tank winds up being right now by maybe adding crushed coral to my prep water before the water changes so the water is close to what it will become in the tank.

 

[Byron]

The pH is not going to rise in the aquarium like these numbers suggest it is, unless something is specifically targeting it. The crushed coral does this obviously. So will calcareous substrate or calcareous rock. If it is going from 6.4 up to 7.6 or higher without crushed coral, something in the tank is doing it. We have already ruled out CO2 in the well water by letting it sit 24 hours with no increase in pH [that was the result, wasn't it?]

I understand the theory behind adding the crushed coral to the replacement water, but I doubt it will work. Crushed coral slowly dissolves in the water, increasing pH as it does. In my experience using this it seems to raise it to some point and then remains there, unless more is added. If you ground it to a powder and dissolved it completely in replacement water, I'm not sure what the result would be when added to the tank.

 

[thrujenseyes]

If it is going from 6.4 up to 7.6 or higher without crushed coral, something in the tank is doing it.

I'm sure it's just the crushed coral...i'm not sure I tested the water once I'd removed it, which was absolutely stupid of me.
I did also add two small pieces of coral looking rock that I'd had in an old tank 20ish years ago (boiled to death before adding). These were pieces I tied some plants to back in comment #61 which was 2 months ago.

I understand the theory behind adding the crushed coral to the replacement water, but I doubt it will work.

I did add a shell to the tap/well mixture two nights ago and it did raise the PH to 7.2.

I suppose to really know what I'm dealing with I'd need to slowly bring the tank down to well water only and remove the bag of aragonite.
I just don't know that I want to murder (which I'm assuming I'd be doing) my shrimp and snail.

I sure wish I had a darn quarantine tank!
ps...I'm sorry byron, I probably really make your head hurt!

 

[Byron]

If the "coral" is true coral, that is calcareous and will slowly and continuously dissolve mineral into the water, just like shells. If it is artificial, unless made of some calcareous substance, not likely.

I've basically let Steven and eagles carry you through this, primarily as I am not as up in the chemistry as Steven certainly is. I have very soft water, and I stay with soft water fish. My common snails have no real issues, though I am certain the pond snails are not so numerous as they would be with more mineral in the water. Malasysian Livebearing snails are known to thrive in very soft to very hard water. Shrimp I have not tried, though I did have two that arrived in the bag with my pygmy cories and went into that tank, and they seemed to live for months. No idea what they were, they were grey (which I suspect is how they got into the cory bag in the first place, they were about the same size too).

Years ago, dolomite in the filter (about half a cup) kept the pH steady at 6.4-6.6 when the tap was below 5; GH I wasn't measuring then. More recently, aragonite does the same for pH, but GH tests show no change from zero. I only do this in one tank for my barbs.

Soft water fish though need soft water to function properly, and I really would not add any calcareous substance to their water. If you can get their tank at GH 75 (ppm presumably) and pH below 7, they will thrive.

 

[thrujenseyes]

I suppose for now, I will ride out this ph as long as I have these shrimp and my nerite.
I'm kind of obsessed with them, more so than fish at this point because they're so active and fun to watch.
I suppose I haven't really been able to enjoy fish as I haven't had the proper water for any of what I was keeping. Maybe this is destine to be a tank for shell life?
I truly feel I need a bigger tank if I want to keep fish.
As years ago when I knew nothing of fish keeping I successfully kept the same two fish (a jack and an oscar) for about 7 years in a 47 gallon bow front. I did everything wrong and they seemed to thrive. I loved them and was crushed when they passed.

 

[Byron]

I suppose for now, I will ride out this ph as long as I have these shrimp and my nerite.
I'm kind of obsessed with them, more so than fish at this point because they're so active and fun to watch.
I suppose I haven't really been able to enjoy fish as I haven't had the proper water for any of what I was keeping. Maybe this is destine to be a tank for shell life?
I truly feel I need a bigger tank if I want to keep fish.
As years ago when I knew nothing of fish keeping I successfully kept the same two fish (a jack and an oscar) for about 7 years in a 47 gallon bow front. I did everything wrong and they seemed to thrive. I loved them and was crushed when they passed.

Some cichlids are very delicate while others are much less so. And while they may seem to manage, they are likely surviving, not thriving, and a key to this is often lifespan. Jack Dempsey can live 10-15 years normally, and oscars 10-20 in captivity. All environmental issues that are contrary to what the fish requires will stress it, and if nothing else, result in a shorter life because the fish can only deal with it for so long before the metabolism gives out.

I mention this not to chastise you but more to point out to anyone reading this that the citations in my signature block have purpose and are true; fish "living" does not mean we are providing them with the best environment, and that should be our aim once we know. So we all learn, sometimes from our own mistakes and sometimes (hopefully) from the mistakes of others.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Some cichlids are very delicate while others are much less so. And while they may seem to manage, they are likely surviving, not thriving, and a key to this is often lifespan. Jack Dempsey can live 10-15 years normally, and oscars 10-20 in captivity. All environmental issues that are contrary to what the fish requires will stress it, and if nothing else, result in a shorter life because the fish can only deal with it for so long before the metabolism gives out.

I mention this not to chastise you but more to point out to anyone reading this that the citations in my signature block have purpose and are true; fish "living" does not mean we are providing them with the best environment, and that should be our aim once we know. So we all learn, sometimes from our own mistakes and sometimes (hopefully) from the mistakes of others.

Oh I get it. I now know they should have lived much longer and also should have been in a much bigger tank. But like I said, I knew nothing of what I was doing. I did what the LFS told me. Each water change (which was not all that often) I added a ton of horrible things (ph up, stress coat, prime, salts) and never ever tested my water.
The poor fish! I even moved them twice ....they had to endure traveling in a car in a huge trash can! Good Lord!

Oh and btw I've spent over an hour reading all of my super old posts on my water chemistry. This has been a confusing ride so far!
I'm learning a lot but I'm also forgetting a lot.....I re read to freshen up.

I think I have a better handle on what my deal is....

If I'm going to keep this pace right now I know my game plan....
If I do decide to change it in the future to go soft water I will forgo all I do now and go straight to my well water and add nothing by possibly prime. But that will be a slow process as not to shock anything.