If I were to use water direct from well.....

[thrujenseyes]

Our plant chat made me feel like it was time to get in there and propagate some things.
Oh and I wanted to tell Byron that I had reduced my light time by a few hours a day and it's helped a lot with the black anubias leaves!
Also I cut it back some and it's no longer touching the top.
Sad news though....I lost one of my endlers during this plant session and I have no idea how.
When I was all done and admiring my work only one endler was eyeballing me from inside...
I looked everywhere. Gave it some time thinking that maybe it was still hiding because I had really just went thru there like a tornado ...but nope. Days later and still MIA
I'm hoping to god he wasn't in my bucket of siphoned water that I poured over the plants outside.
I check the bucket good because I had sucked them up a time or two before.
But this bucket did have plants in it since I was moving things around.
I looked thru all of my plants outside (needle in a hay stack).
Poor guy...SIP little man.

 

[thrujenseyes]

We had narrowed it down to the boraras brigitte yet I can't find them anywhere.
Oddly an email came in yesterday about these:
https://aquaticarts.com/products/phoenix-rasboras
Seem to be all the same specs.
I emailed the company asking if it were possible to request all males and they said it is not because they sell them too young to be sexed.
They didn't see it to be an issue because they said they rarely breed and if and when they do the other fish will eat the eggs.
I explained that don't want to wind up with a sardine can.
My question here is ....
with other fish and some shrimp....is there any chance babies could survive?

 

[Byron]

We had narrowed it down to the boraras brigitte yet I can't find them anywhere.
Oddly an email came in yesterday about these:
https://aquaticarts.com/products/phoenix-rasboras
Seem to be all the same specs.
I emailed the company asking if it were possible to request all males and they said it is not because they sell them too young to be sexed.
They didn't see it to be an issue because they said they rarely breed and if and when they do the other fish will eat the eggs.
I explained that don't want to wind up with a sardine can.
My question here is ....
with other fish and some shrimp....is there any chance babies could survive?

If this is the only fish species in the aquarium, and it is reasonably well planted, some fry may survive. Egglayer fry are rare because most fish will readily and rapidly devour any eggs they find, be it the species itself or other species. With species that are small in size, and with other species present, it is unlikely you will see fry. I certainly wouldn't worry; I never saw fry from my Boraras maculatus or B. brigittae.

Discerning male/female is basically impossible, except in mature fish when females will be a bit thicker/rounder viewed from above. You would not want all males anyway, as mixed gender inevitably means more natural behaviours and interactions. Even without surviving fry, I find it a joy to observe various species when they suddenly go through the spawning routines.

Boraras merah is not the most colourful of the species in the genus, unfortunately.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/boraras-merah/

You could wait until you see the others, like B. brigittae; these are not that uncommon, I tend to see them locally once if not two or three times each year. In the US you have some excellent online fish suppliers. I know of The Wet Spot in Portland, Oregon, and they do mail orders. Here's their fish list, it is huge, but you will see Boraras brigittae listed (may not be in stock, but they do carry it periodically):
http://www.wetspottropicalfish.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=116

Byron.

 

[thrujenseyes]

If this is the only fish species in the aquarium, and it is reasonably well planted, some fry may survive. Egglayer fry are rare because most fish will readily and rapidly devour any eggs they find, be it the species itself or other species. With species that are small in size, and with other species present, it is unlikely you will see fry. I certainly wouldn't worry; I never saw fry from my Boraras maculatus or B. brigittae.

Discerning male/female is basically impossible, except in mature fish when females will be a bit thicker/rounder viewed from above. You would not want all males anyway, as mixed gender inevitably means more natural behaviours and interactions. Even without surviving fry, I find it a joy to observe various species when they suddenly go through the spawning routines.

Boraras merah is not the most colourful of the species in the genus, unfortunately.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/boraras-merah/

You could wait until you see the others, like B. brigittae; these are not that uncommon, I tend to see them locally once if not two or three times each year. In the US you have some excellent online fish suppliers. I know of The Wet Spot in Portland, Oregon, and they do mail orders. Here's their fish list, it is huge, but you will see Boraras brigittae listed (may not be in stock, but they do carry it periodically):
http://www.wetspottropicalfish.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=116

Byron.

Ohhhhh I am sooooooo excited to hear yiur advice!!! I've always wanted to watch the male female behaviors but was too scared!
I'm sure my shrimp will eat eggs too...?!
I'm set on these little guys foe my next school!!!
thanks Byron!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[thrujenseyes]

I have a question about outgassing...
will the water keep changing over time?

I ask because I tested my outgassed well water yesterday after many weeks and it has changed from when I tested after about 3 days of outgassing.

Every time I test my well water it is the same....
lowest reading on the ph tests, so I bought the Hydroid Paper (as referred by someone here) and it seems to always be between 5 and 6. Color immediately looks like a 5 then quickly changes and stays at 6.
The API test has always been the palest yellow indicating 6 or lower.
Yesterday however, it was the shade right below which is 6.4!!! It was clear as day and I did the test with absolute precision.
I've never seen that before but I've never tested water that had been sitting for many weeks (probably 4-5 weeks).

When I collect my water to be outgassed I fill 5 gallon water jugs and leave the lid off for about 12-24 hours and then I cover with tin foil and store for my weekly water changes.... this way I always have outgassed water.

So, will the water keep changing as time passes?
Oh....and another important factor is that there is a small Nitrate reading of 10-20 which leads me to believe that once I'm using this water I will need to use a conditioner?
(I do not right now as the mixture I use for changes has zero nitrates, nitrites and chlorine and ammonia)

 

[StevenF]

If the water is outgassing the only thing that should change is PH. If the water ph doesn't change after many day the low PH my be due to something other than CO2. Such as tannins in the water. Tannin is an organic molecule that is acidic when resolved in water. Dead plant material often releases tannin. Since tannin is a solid, not a gas it won't outgas.

Tannin - Wikipedia

Oh....and another important factor is that there is a small Nitrate reading of 10-20 which leads me to believe that once I'm using this water I will need to use a conditioner?

A nitrate reading of 10 to 20 is ideal for an aquarium and will not do any harm. If I recall correctly your well water is not treated with chlorine. If that is the case there is no need for a water conditioner. Furthermore I don't believe there are any water conditioners that treat nitrate.

 

[Byron]

There is to my knowledge only one conditioner that does detoxify nitrate (along with nitrite and ammonia) in the source water, Seachem's Prime. [Aquarium Solutions Ultimate will detoxify ammonia and nitrite, but not nitrate; these are the only two I know of that deal with nitrite.] Seachem admit they do not understand how Prime detoxifies nitrate; I believe the last idea they had when asked was by binding it, somewhat similar to how nitrite is bound by Prime. They did not set out to have the nitrate detoxification part of Prime, it just happens (so they have told me). I must say that whenever a product does something and the reason behind it is not understood by the manufacturer or anyone else, I am a bit concerned, which is one reason I do not normally recommend Prime.

However, the detoxification is also temporary. Seachem say 24-36 hours, after which time, if still present, nitrate again becomes toxic. And nitrate is toxic to all fish, though not at the low levels ammonia and nitrite poison fish. But you want nitrate as low as possible, and 20 ppm is the highest recommended level for fish. So this is not a "treatment" solution, in case anyone wonders. It is only intended to deal with the initial influx of nitrate, on the assumption that plants/bacteria will be able to deal with it subsequently. There are bacteria in the substrate primarily that use nitrate, part of the denitrification process.

The problem here is that nitrate at 10 ppm or 15 ppm in the source water will increase, normally. Most aquaria with fish do have nitrate occurring; I have zero to 5 ppm in all my tanks but one which has 5 to 10 ppm (another story). Some aquarists with fairly heavily low-tech/natural planted tanks will see zero nitrate permanently (very goodfor fishies ) as a result of the plants taking up some and the denitrifiers the rest. But for most, nitrate will be resulting at hopefully low levels. But this is then added to the initial nitrate, raising the level higher, and that is where it can become problematic. In many cases one can increase the volume or frequency of water changers to keep nitrates low if they tend to occur higher, but when they are already in the source water that process loses most of its effectiveness.

AbbeysDad has quite high nitrate in his water, being well water in an agricultural region, and he has worked hard to deal with it, and successfully; if he sees this he can explain his method, or you (Jen) could PM him. Just so you know the story; I'm not suggesting by any means that you have a problem here; it could become one in tanks with a relatively heavy fish load, as the more fish the more nitrate will be likely to occur.

Byron.

 

[thrujenseyes]

If the water is outgassing the only thing that should change is PH. If the water ph doesn't change after many day the low PH my be due to something other than CO2. Such as tannins in the water.

Ok well I think I'm ok then as all other parameters have stayed the same. The PH is the only thing that rose....ever so slightly.

There is to my knowledge only one conditioner that does detoxify nitrate (along with nitrite and ammonia) in the source water, Seachem's Prime.

I do have this and use to use it before you told me it wasn't necessary as (at the time) I had no chlorine, ammonia and or nitrate and nitrites in my water (using tap at the time...and even when I started mixing in distilled there was still no need). But since my Well water apparently has nitrates, I thought I'd ask.

However, the detoxification is also temporary.

I do remember reading this under a thread about a person who's source water also contained nitrates.

The problem here is that nitrate at 10 ppm or 15 ppm in the source water will increase, normally

Why will it increase? And where...in the well itself? Or in my tank?
As of now (adding 1/3 Tap, 1/3 distilled and 1/3 Well) my tank has a zero reading of nitrates.

Some aquarists with fairly heavily low-tech/natural planted tanks will see zero nitrate permanently (very goodfor fishies ) as a result of the plants taking up some and the denitrifiers the rest.

I suppose my heavily planted (low tech) set up helps suck up the small amount of nitrates from my well water?

In many cases one can increase the volume or frequency of water changers

I already do 50% once a week.

if he sees this he can explain his method, or you (Jen) could PM him.

I'll see if I can get in touch with him...thanks

 

[thrujenseyes]

A nitrate reading of 10 to 20 is ideal for an aquarium and will not do any harm. If I recall correctly your well water is not treated with chlorine.

whoops.....forgot this one:
The reading of the nitrate is from the well water but apparently once it goes into my tank it dissipates or disappears...? I'm guessing my plants?
And you are correct, my well is not treated with chlorine and also has a zero ammonia reading.

 

[Byron]

Why will it increase? And where...in the well itself? Or in my tank?
As of now (adding 1/3 Tap, 1/3 distilled and 1/3 Well) my tank has a zero reading of nitrates.

I think I did explain this, but that's OK. Tanks with fish tend to produce nitrate; it depends upon the fish (size and number), feeding (the more food in, the more organics = nitrate resulting), live plants, water changes. So the nitrate in the source water will remain, and the nitrates naturally produced in the aquarium will add to it. Generally. Sometimes not, depending upon the system and factors.

Diluting the well water will obviously dilute what is in it, including nitrate, so nitrate should be lower.

Now, to the zero nitrate in the tank...there are no fish, so no fish food entering, so organics resulting will be much less. The plants may be using the nitrate. Plants prefer ammonia/ammonium, and turn to nitrate when the ammonia/ammonium is insufficient for their needs (their needs is in balance with everything else, light and nutrients). But, plants tend to take up nitrogen fairly rapidly. Fast growing plants like floating plants are often referred to as "ammonia sinks" because they really do take up a lot. It is almost impossible to overload ammonia from natural sources (fish load and organics) with fast-growing plants present.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

There is to my knowledge only one conditioner that does detoxify nitrate (along with nitrite and ammonia) in the source water, Seachem's Prime. [Aquarium Solutions Ultimate will detoxify ammonia and nitrite, but not nitrate; these are the only two I know of that deal with nitrite.] Seachem admit they do not understand how Prime detoxifies nitrate; I believe the last idea they had when asked was by binding it, somewhat similar to how nitrite is bound by Prime. They did not set out to have the nitrate detoxification part of Prime, it just happens (so they have told me). I must say that whenever a product does something and the reason behind it is not understood by the manufacturer or anyone else, I am a bit concerned, which is one reason I do not normally recommend Prime.

However, the detoxification is also temporary. Seachem say 24-36 hours, after which time, if still present, nitrate again becomes toxic. And nitrate is toxic to all fish, though not at the low levels ammonia and nitrite poison fish. But you want nitrate as low as possible, and 20 ppm is the highest recommended level for fish. So this is not a "treatment" solution, in case anyone wonders. It is only intended to deal with the initial influx of nitrate, on the assumption that plants/bacteria will be able to deal with it subsequently. There are bacteria in the substrate primarily that use nitrate, part of the denitrification process.

The problem here is that nitrate at 10 ppm or 15 ppm in the source water will increase, normally. Most aquaria with fish do have nitrate occurring; I have zero to 5 ppm in all my tanks but one which has 5 to 10 ppm (another story). Some aquarists with fairly heavily low-tech/natural planted tanks will see zero nitrate permanently (very goodfor fishies ) as a result of the plants taking up some and the denitrifiers the rest. But for most, nitrate will be resulting at hopefully low levels. But this is then added to the initial nitrate, raising the level higher, and that is where it can become problematic. In many cases one can increase the volume or frequency of water changers to keep nitrates low if they tend to occur higher, but when they are already in the source water that process loses most of its effectiveness.

AbbeysDad has quite high nitrate in his water, being well water in an agricultural region, and he has worked hard to deal with it, and successfully; if he sees this he can explain his method, or you (Jen) could PM him. Just so you know the story; I'm not suggesting by any means that you have a problem here; it could become one in tanks with a relatively heavy fish load, as the more fish the more nitrate will be likely to occur.

Byron.

Nitrite and nitrate have eerily similar chemical properties, other than molecular size and mass... obviously, nitrate has an extra oxygen atom.

But, in terms of their chemical reactivity... they are ions with very similar in terms of their reactivity and what they will react with... though not identical. So, whatever Seachem has chosen to bind nitrite with, might also bind with nitrate.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Tanks with fish tend to produce nitrate; it depends upon the fish (size and number), feeding (the more food in, the more organics = nitrate resulting), live plants, water changes. So the nitrate in the source water will remain, and the nitrates naturally produced in the aquarium will add to it.

I believe that whole explanation falls under the "how cycling works and what eats and feeds what ...and for some reason my brain just refuses to compute that. Luckily I got thru the cycling beautifully thanks to this forum and help from you and others but God only knows what kind of fresh hell I'd have walked into had I attempted that on my own!

Now, to the zero nitrate in the tank...there are no fish, so no fish food entering, so organics resulting will be much less. The plants may be using the nitrate.

There was one fish this whole time, remaining endler. Plus an Amano shrimp and a Sunkist shrimp and a snail. So I was still feeding....a minute amount.

***however I did manage to find chili rasboras today and drove a million miles to get them. So now I have 6 new little babies that I can barely find in my tank, holy small fish. These are babies and Jeeeez they're tiny! I believe 5 are chili and one is quite possibly a dwarf rasbora...markings are slightly different***

Nitrite and nitrate have eerily similar chemical properties, other than molecular size and mass...

Interesting.

So, whatever Seachem has chosen to bind nitrite with, might also bind with nitrate.

the bottle does say "detoxifies ammonia, nitrite & nitrate".

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Not all details, but they both have a (-1) electric charge... which means that they can be bonded to similar cations.

Both are involved in oxidation reactions, though only nitrites are involved in reduction reactions. Nitrates are linked to cancer though, and nitrites are not.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Some time has passed and I've been doing my weekly 50% water changes with 50% tap and 50% well (removing the distilled).
I moved into this as to get myself and inhabitants ready for a softer water fish.

QUOTE="Byron, post: 3771119, member: 49218"]For a 6 gallon, I would suggest you stay with the nano fish, like the Boraras species of dwarf rasboras. Ember Tetra would work too.[/QUOTE]

I got 6 of the teeeeeeniest chili rasboras (could barely even see them) July 24th.
Within a week, I'd lost 3.
We are now 7 weeks later and I only have one left and I'd even lost my sunkist shrimp in that timing.
I'd wondered if my removing the crushed aragonite (teeny bag from filter) had resulted in him not being able to properly molt? There was a molted shell in there when he passed by it might have been the amanos.

I got nervous and added back the bag of aragonite. (Been in there maybe two weeks now).

So now I have one remaining endler and one chili rasbora (two completely different water needs I know). One amano shrimp, one nerite snail and one blue shrimp I purchased with the chilis.

I am just so defeated, I'm not sure what the issue is.
I haven't been able to successfully keep hard, medium or soft water fish. But my amano has been kicking it since ....about 2 years ago. My sunkist was about a year and my nerite is probably close to two.

Fish don't seem to survive. I religiously 50% water change every week on mondays. I always outgass and have the water pre prepared. No one seems stressed at water change....like they did a few years back.

I'm getting ready to give up on fish and just keep shrimp. But that breaks my heart.

 

[Mark Z.]

Hi Jen,

Sorry to hear of your problems. Hmm.

I am no expert, but I am wondering....what if you did NOT change 50% water each week? Since you have so few fish and plenty of plants, maybe just a small water change and not as often?

Just thinking out loud.

Mark