If I were to use water direct from well.....

[StevenF]

Quite a few 'rasboras' or 'boraras' species would be suitable, even in water as low as 4.0 pH.

I don't think we want to stock with fish that can withstand low PH number. The reason behind my thinking is that your well water quickly outgases and the PH quickly climbs up to about 7.5. So If we have a fish that do best in acidic water the tank water prior to a water change would about 7.5. After the water change it would would be acidic, and then within 24 to 48 hours it would be 7.5 again. In my mind the would give the fish of a PH shock.

The best abroad in my mind is is to put the well water in a bucket and let it outgas until the PH stabilizes to about 7.5. Do the water change. And immediately after the water change the PH would still be 7.5. No PH shock. So if we do this most soft water fish would be suitable for your tank as long as they are small due to your tanks 6 gallon capacity. One fish you might be interested in is:

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/

Well, that's the question... If the 40 you mention is 40 ppm, then its too soft... WAY too soft..

GH: 75-150

It should be noted that while the water is soft the tank water in this case is at a GH of 75 to 150ppm. So while going to direct well water getting soft water fish is one solution. The other solution is to reduce the amount of RO or distilled water you use and increasing the hard tap water you have. Boosting the water hardness this way would help the endless. However we also have the complication with your Oto and shrimp. We don't want to get the GH too high for them. Then the only other issue we have is why are your plants not growing well. Do the leaves of your plants look healthy or are you seeing holes or yellow leaves?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

If the pH rises as you say, then I agree. But, I have a hard time believing it will rise that much with no influence from the rest of the tank. And with such low kH in the well water, I'm thinking that even if at first it's slightly basic water, that when the cycle starts turning over nitrate that the pH won't stay basic for very long at all, including during water changes. I figure that we'd be looking at something in the 6.0-6.5 range at the highest end after gassing off as well as the influence of nitrate and some driftwood... (thinking that removing the crushed coral would be another step along the way...). But it might be more likely to be in the 5.5-6.0 range.

That still leaves the shrimp as a concern though as the water would then potentially be too soft for them and they might have trouble molting. The otos though would be fine in that range, assuming otocinclus macrospilus.

 

[StevenF]

Quite a few 'rasboras' or 'boraras' species would be suitable, even in water as low as 4.0 pH.

I don't think we want to stock with fish that can withstand low PH number. The reason behind my thinking is that your well water quickly outgases and the PH quickly climbs up to about 7.5. So If we have a fish that do best in acidic water the tank water prior to a water change would about 7.5. After the water change it would would be acidic, and then within 24 to 48 hours it would be 7.5 again. In my mind the would give the fish of a PH shock.

The best path in my mind is is to put the well water in a bucket and let it outgas until the PH stabilizes to about 7.5. Do the water change. And immediately after the water change the PH would still be 7.5. No PH shock. So if we do this most soft water fish would be suitable for your tank as long as they are small due to your tanks 6 gallon capacity. One fish you might be interested in is:

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/

Well, that's the question... If the 40 you mention is 40 ppm, then its too soft... WAY too soft..

GH: 75-150

It should be noted that while the well water is soft the tank water in this case is at a GH of 75 to 150ppm. So while going to direct well water getting soft water fish is one solution. The other solution is to reduce the amount of RO or distilled water you use and increasing the hard tap water you have. Boosting the water hardness this way would help the endless. However we also have the complication with your Otto and shrimp. We don't want to get the GH too high for them. Then the only other issue we have is why are your plants not growing well. Do the leaves of your plants look healthy or are you seeing holes or yellow leaves?

 

[thrujenseyes]

your well water quickly outgases and the PH quickly climbs up to about 7.5

This is not the case. I did go back to try and find where you read this and I'm still unsure but I can tell you that I've had my straight from well water in a bucket since Sunday evening and it hasn't gone over the 6 mark in the ph testing. Still reads the lowest mark.
Those strips you lead me to on Amazon (for low ph readings) will be here today and we can see exactly (well almost) what the direct well water is. And I'm super excited!

So I sure hope this doesn't mean that I can't have the soft water fish because something is telling me that's what I need. And now I'm obsessed with all the teeny ones out there!

The other solution is to reduce the amount of RO or distilled water you use and increasing the hard tap water you have.

My issue is that I don't want to deal with my ever changing tap water. It's hard sometimes (after the coral gets changed out and then slowly dissolves and goes back to soft. It's been almost two years since they changed that contraption so it's lost most of it's hardness but I'll have to have it redone soon and it will skyrocket again.
It's too unstable.

f the pH rises as you say, then I agree. But, I have a hard time believing it will rise that much with no influence from the rest of the tank

This is true. The well stays low....just how low I will learn today when those strips arrive from amazon.
Whatever I put in my tank does rise and it might be because of all the plants and the bit of crushed aragonite in filter.

I figure that we'd be looking at something in the 6.0-6.5 range at the highest end after gassing off

I'd be pretty psyched with that.

But it might be more likely to be in the 5.5-6.0 range.

I feel like this might be more likely.

That still leaves the shrimp as a concern though as the water would then potentially be too soft for them and they might have trouble molting. The otos though would be fine in that range, assuming otocinclus macrospilus.

I keep reading that a lot of shrimp are more soft water than hard?! Seems weird since they have shells.
I'll have to further look into this as I really want to keep them as I've grown very attached to mine and would love a few more.

I no longer have my otos (swim in peace buddies) they lasted 8 months and then passed on.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Being in the US, you might consider kensfish's shrimp sticks... they have calcium infused in them to help with shell maintenance... Decent prices as well. Kensfish offers a lot of foods, filter media, etc. at very nice prices compared to the 'big box stores'.

http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/fish-food-feeders/kens-premium-veggie-sticks-calcium.html

 

[thrujenseyes]

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/

I absolutely love these little fish but someone warned me against them when I first came to this site....I think they said I'd need too many and or they're just too active for my tiny tank?
They are super beautiful though!!!!

My two biggest obsessions right now are:
1. Boraras Brigitte
2. Pseudomugil Gertrudes (spotted blue eye)

Being in the US, you might consider kensfish's shrimp sticks... they have calcium infused in them to help with shell maintenance

I love this suggestion and will absolutely do this! Thanks for the link!!

Also, my strips for measuring low PH were suppose to arrive yesterday and they didn't!
I waited and waited...
So bummed.

I did retest the outgassed well water (yet again) to see if it's risen passed the lowest mark on my tests and it has not.
It's still reading a 6 on the API mater test kit and it's now been outgassing for 4 days.

 

[thrujenseyes]

Ok, so I'm super Duper excited!!!
I got my little test thingy to test low PH.

I used the well water that's been outgassing since sunday (4 days).

It sure seems to be the same color as the 6, but fades to the color of the 5 after a few seconds BUT it does say to read immediately after. (oh and I did test tank water and it came up 7 ...which is correct, it's usually 7.4-7.6)
So I'm guessing it's either high 5's? Or even maybe just 6?

Either way I'm really excited and happy that it's not super low!

Here are my readings for outgassed well water:
PH: somewhere between 5-6
Ammonia: 0
Chlorine: 0
KH: 0
GH: 25
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 5.0 on API, on Tetra 6 in 1 strips it's a little darker than 0 but not quite 10

So....what do you guys think I can do going forward?

I will keep my remaining endlers happy until their no longer with me.

But after that? Either of these work?
1. Boraras Brigitte
2. Pseudomugil Gertrudes (spotted blue eye)
And can I safely keep some shrimp and a snail?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Absolutely.... Boraras brigittae thrive in conditions like you are describing in your tank.

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/boraras-brigittae/

The widely available plastic ‘grass’-type matting can also be used and works very well. The water itself should be of pH 5.0-6.5, 1-5°H with a temperature towards the upper end of the range suggested above.

(Specifically from the reproductive section of the profile.)

Similar with the blue eyes...


If this were my tank, I'd likely go black water with some dim light loving plants, and some floaters, with a bit of driftwood... and go with the mosquito rasboras and blue eyes. I'd also remove the old substrate or at least the bag of carbonate...


As for shrimp...
http/www.planetinverts.com/breeding softwater shrimp by kenshin.html
And the classic red cherrys should do quite well there. As would any mentioned in the link above, I believe.

 

[StevenF]

I got my little test thingy to test low PH.

I used the well water that's been outgassing since sunday (4 days).

It sure seems to be the same color as the 6, but fades to the color of the 5 after a few seconds BUT it does say to read immediately after. (oh and I did test tank water and it came up 7

The first thing I would do is to get a fresh sample from your well and immediately test it. We need to know what your worst case PH would be if you use well water.

I keep reading that a lot of shrimp are more soft water than hard?! Seems weird since they have shells.
I'll have to further look into this as I really want to keep them as I've grown very attached to mine and would love a few more.

My experience with RO and shrimp is that as long as you have a sea shell, crushed coral or aragonite. You will have enough calcium in the water for your shrimp. before I added calcium carbonate all my shrimp died. after I added calcium carbonate my shrimp survived and molted normally. Additionally there is nothing wrong with adding a very small amount of a a more soluble form of calcium or magnesium as insurance.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Agreed.

I would recommend remineralizing your well water just a little bit. There are some very good sources for powdered calcium carbonate online and just a pinch each water change (obviously you'd want to use a measured amount that you'd predetermined after a bit of experimenting) would keep things right with the shrimp. I'd aim to have a kH around 2 degrees after the addition... that little bit would likely be just enough to give your tank a little buffer to help keep things stable.

 

[thrujenseyes]

he first thing I would do is to get a fresh sample from your well and immediately test it. We need to know what your worst case PH would be if you use well water.

I just did this and it appears to be exactly the same as the outgassed?!
Is that odd?
It seems to be a 6 but quickly fades to a 5.

If this were my tank, I'd likely go black water with some dim light loving plants, and some floaters, with a bit of driftwood... and go with the mosquito rasboras and blue eyes. I'd also remove the old substrate or at least the bag of carbonate...

I have only anubias species and another above substrate root plant.....maybe a crypt?
and some old amazon sword that's slowly dying out.
the large anubias leaves umbrella the tank and lighting for the most part. They go all the way up to the glass, so I don't know that I need floating plants, they might just clog up the anubias?
And I have quite a bit of spider wood shoved into this tiny tank (the picture in my signature is not at all what the tank looks like now). I have twisted the roots into the wood and it's really quite nice and natural.
You think my substrate should go? I love my substrate! ?...no? not natural?
It's seachem black fluorite.

I would recommend remineralizing your well water just a little bit.

I do this now with a tiny bag (about a 1/4 cup) of Aragonite. I keep it in the filter.

I don't like the idea of using tap water as it's ever changing PH worries me.
I'd rather use well and Aragonite....if that seems ok?
How should I do this? Will I just do what I do now? Or Maybe Fill buckets with Well Water and a little Aragonite and have it already prepared for the tank?

 

[eaglesaquarium]

That tank looks perfect for the fish we are discussing... and I'd suggest the aragonite be dissolved with the water before you use it, so that you know exactly what you are adding when you add it. Having the aragonite slowly dissolve could mean pushing the levels higher than you want, or not as high as you want.

The issue with what you are doing now is that the hardness is too high for what you are talking about adding in the future, but too low for what you have now.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

As for getting the 'blackwater' look without messing with the hardness, etc... I'd recommend Rooibos tea. You can get the darkness you want without any other elements being disrupted (I believe that the pH might bump up by about 0.1 - nothing to worry about).

 

[Byron]

I wouldnot try to add any mineral, this is risky. I have zero GH/KH source water, I add nothing (except one tank, more later) and the pH goes where it wants and remains stable. Soft water fish will be fine. If the pH is 5-6, as mine tends to be.

The fact that it is rising to 7 in the tank is a problem. If you had fish requiring that, OK, but not otherwise. My one tank I use aragonite to keep the pH around 6.6 because of the fish (barbs). The others stay low.

Byron.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I wouldnot try to add any mineral, this is risky. I have zero GH/KH source water, I add nothing (except one tank, more later) and the pH goes where it wants and remains stable. Soft water fish will be fine. If the pH is 5-6, as mine tends to be.

The fact that it is rising to 7 in the tank is a problem. If you had fish requiring that, OK, but not otherwise. My one tank I use aragonite to keep the pH around 6.6 because of the fish (barbs). The others stay low.

Byron.

The only risk is if the aragonite isn't being monitored and tested before its being used. I'm in no way suggesting the 'bag in the filter' method. I am suggesting it be pre-dissolved elsewhere before being added to the straight well water... which would then be added to the tank. (With such a small tank, this is the best way, as I see it to keep things stable. Small volumes of water will vary wildly much more than larger ones... so this method I'm proposing would be effective to stabilize everything in the 'sweet spot'.)

As you clearly state in your second point about the barbs, you have added a measured amount and have produced a stable 6.6 with your water. All that is necessary is a series of experiments (without fish, obviously) to how much aragonite would be necessary to boost the pH onto the API test kit scale... somewhere in the 6.2-6.4 range would be nice. The fish being discussed can handle it lower, or at this level (they seem to breed when the pH is closer to the mid-6's rather than lower than 6, which implies to me that there is a benefit to them at this pH, if practical)... but the shrimp would likely benefit from just the slightest bit of kH being present rather than sitting at (measurably) 0. Getting that to boost just to the level of 1 degree (maybe 1.5, but definitely no higher than 2!) would likely be enough to make the shrimp a better possibility than expecting them to survive in 0 kH water.




In general - you often recommend (and rightly) that the water dictates what fish should be kept by folks. And that's true. BUT... if someone understands the chemistry involved in their tank, and can make adjustments to it and are willing to do what is necessary, then they should. This takes them more from the 'freshwater' side of things and puts them more into the 'marine' side. Marine systems are far more complex, but can easily be maintained by someone willing to do the research.

I think that in this case it comes down to whether jen is interested in fiddling with the water chemistry to keep the shrimp as well as the fish. The fish don't need it, but the shrimp would likely benefit. It really is up to her initiative.