Ideas On Why Cycling Wont Start

[Shrimper]

I've not read all your cycling issues but i was wondering if you've been testing Nitrite and Nitrate at all and if they have moved? It could be something simple like a false reading on your Ammonia test.

 

[pastabake]

Personally I am totally against the high dose, test and wait method. I think it presents far too many opportunities for error. IMO daily dosing at low levels along with daily 10% water changes is the way to go, that way the bacteria always have some ammonia and you are only testing to see what's happening rather than to make the next (mis)step.

Personally I would add ammonia at 1ppm daily from now on and see how that goes. If you have seen a change then the process is starting and from now on the colony should be able to double in size within a 24hrs period, so if you want more colony just add more ammonia daily, but do this at the end of the cycle.

I would stress that the important test is not whether the ammonia is dropping but whether the nitrite is rising. Rising nitrite is, by nature of the nitrogen cycle, a sign that the ammonia is being processed and you cannot move onto the next stage without nitrite to start the next bacteria colony off.

btw - the daily method does not take longer, mine took 20-21 days

 

[LionessN3cubs]

I've not read all your cycling issues but i was wondering if you've been testing Nitrite and Nitrate at all and if they have moved? It could be something simple like a false reading on your Ammonia test.

yeah I've tested it all just to be sure. Even now with being pretty sure my ammonia dropped a tad bit, my nitrites are still very definately 0. Nitrates are pretty much at 0 too. I even double checked everything with the first test kit I bought. I bought a 2nd kit when I used the ammonia tester all up. Someone else had mentioned possibly a dodgy test kit but thats not the case unfortunately

Personally I am totally against the high dose, test and wait method. I think it presents far too many opportunities for error. IMO daily dosing at low levels along with daily 10% water changes is the way to go, that way the bacteria always have some ammonia and you are only testing to see what's happening rather than to make the next (mis)step.

Personally I would add ammonia at 1ppm daily from now on and see how that goes. If you have seen a change then the process is starting and from now on the colony should be able to double in size within a 24hrs period, so if you want more colony just add more ammonia daily, but do this at the end of the cycle.

I would stress that the important test is not whether the ammonia is dropping but whether the nitrite is rising. Rising nitrite is, by nature of the nitrogen cycle, a sign that the ammonia is being processed and you cannot move onto the next stage without nitrite to start the next bacteria colony off.

btw - the daily method does not take longer, mine took 20-21 days

thanks for the advice now, should I wait until this current dose of ammonia drops to 0 (or close to it) before I add daily, or should I add daily regardless?

 

[pastabake]

As its only at 2 I would start adding an extra 1ppm from tomorrow morning.

 

[rabbut]

Possible mentioned above, but I didn't see it while skim reading

chelating agents

These are quite possible the issue. They are used to stop the ammonia and water seporating. What type of ammonia are you using? The issue is that a lot of chelating agents are toxic, thus could be killing and nitogenic bacteria that find their way into the tank.

It may already have been covered, if so I appologise. If it hasen't, my theory as to what is going on is that the ammonia you are using has a toxic type of chelating agent in it, that is caursing the filter bacteria to die as soon as they get into the tank. This may explain why your cycle is going nowhere

All the best
Rabbut

 

[LionessN3cubs]

Possible mentioned above, but I didn't see it while skim reading

chelating agents

These are quite possible the issue. They are used to stop the ammonia and water seporating. What type of ammonia are you using? The issue is that a lot of chelating agents are toxic, thus could be killing and nitogenic bacteria that find their way into the tank.

It may already have been covered, if so I appologise. If it hasen't, my theory as to what is going on is that the ammonia you are using has a toxic type of chelating agent in it, that is caursing the filter bacteria to die as soon as they get into the tank. This may explain why your cycle is going nowhere

All the best
Rabbut

it was bought at walmart "great value brand" ammonia. Anyone else have problems with this one?

 

[waterdrop]

"A chelating agent is nothing more that a bonding agent that keeps the ammonia and water "mixed". It is fine for a fishless cycle. The ingredients you don't want are fragrance, dyes or surfactants. Those are bad. " Quote from RDD in Oct 2005 on TFF.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tolak]

I trust those little nitrifying bacteria more than any water supplier. It may be a case of your water company adding more chloramine than the dechlorinator you are adding is neuteralizing. Double, or even triple dosing with dechlor won't hurt anything, and will eliminate one variable. Chlora mine will at least slow, if not kill nitrifying bacteria in most cases.

My water came out of the tap smelling like a swimming pool this morning, this is not that unusual. I double dose with Prime all winter long, as well as the rest of the times as weather conditions dictate.

 

[backtotropical]

OK BTT, I have this detail/feeling to discuss re Lioness's fishless cycle:

In my case it is true that my big ammonia drop came shortly after the large water change that you recommended when I was at about day 19. But there was a reason, namely that my soft water allowed the pH to crash down to 6.0 and numerous sources say that will stall the cycle. Each water change I did brought the pH back up to 7.4-7.6, much better than 6.

But in the Lioness case there has never been an identifiable problem. AFAIK, pH has been stable, which implies that there must be enough carbonate hardness to keep it stable. The temperature has been correct all along. The ammonia level was way too high initially, which might have encouraged an incorrect colony, but the effects of that should have worn off by now I would think.

SO, I just have this feeling that too many water changes might -not- be the thing for her at the moment. In the course of looking at the dozens of fishless articles out there on the web that rdd probably used to build his TFF article, I ran across a case or two where people felt that the cloudy bacterial bloom was a good thing and that when you got it, they felt that some fraction of this excess of bacteria would eventually settle on to the filter media, given some time without disturbance. I realize this may be bogus, that all that should really be needed is the food, the ammonia, but I just wonder if more days with plenty of oxygen and no disturbance(ie. water change) might be good for her. Reading her threads one just gets the feeling that the tank is always getting fiddled with, maybe can never settle down for a series of days of stable cooking!

When my Nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria finally reached maturity, it was after a series of days of cloudy bacterial bloom and nothing being done except maintaining the ammonia-oxidizing-bacteria with 2ppm of ammonia each morning.

ok BTT, ready for you to come bak'at me...
~~waterdrop~~

Hi Waterdrop / Lioness, et alia,

I absolutely agree that a bacterial bloom is a good thing during cycling. I don't think that is bogus at all. In fact, i would suggest that probably 99% of the bacteria which are free-floating will end up settling on the filter media. I wouldn't advise anyone with a bacterial bloom to perform water changes, as that would effectively be un-cycling your tank (to a degree, anyway).

I do think you are underestimating the resiliance of the filter bacteria slightly here, Waterdrop, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to leave it alone for say, 1 week, and see if anything unfolds.

Water changes certainly aren't required as a matter of course during fishless cycling, but they can make all the difference when you hit a stumbling block.

Several very good points have come up on this thread since i last visited, and i'm particularly interested that your water dries to a pink colour, Lioness. Fluoride maybe? I'm afraid i have no idea what effect this could possibly have on the filter bacteria.

chelating agents

These are quite possible the issue. They are used to stop the ammonia and water seporating. What type of ammonia are you using? The issue is that a lot of chelating agents are toxic, thus could be killing and nitogenic bacteria that find their way into the tank.

It may already have been covered, if so I appologise. If it hasen't, my theory as to what is going on is that the ammonia you are using has a toxic type of chelating agent in it, that is caursing the filter bacteria to die as soon as they get into the tank. This may explain why your cycle is going nowhere

Hi Rabbut,

Do you mind me asking your source of this info? I have always thought that, as Waterdrop quotes, chelating agents are safe for cycling. I'd be interested to hear more.

Lioness, all this discussion and i'm still not sure that you actually have a problem, TBH. I'm reasonably confident that a bit of patience will be your saviour. Leave well alone for 1 week and see what happens, thats my advice.

Tolak's idea on the chloramines makes a lot of sense too. Double dose, double dose!

P.S. Waterdrop, i didn't realise that your NOBs had finally reared their ugly head (that really doesn't sound right ). Congrats!

 

[waterdrop]

OK BTT, I have this detail/feeling to discuss re Lioness's fishless cycle:

In my case it is true that my big ammonia drop came shortly after the large water change that you recommended when I was at about day 19. But there was a reason, namely that my soft water allowed the pH to crash down to 6.0 and numerous sources say that will stall the cycle. Each water change I did brought the pH back up to 7.4-7.6, much better than 6.

But in the Lioness case there has never been an identifiable problem. AFAIK, pH has been stable, which implies that there must be enough carbonate hardness to keep it stable. The temperature has been correct all along. The ammonia level was way too high initially, which might have encouraged an incorrect colony, but the effects of that should have worn off by now I would think.

SO, I just have this feeling that too many water changes might -not- be the thing for her at the moment. In the course of looking at the dozens of fishless articles out there on the web that rdd probably used to build his TFF article, I ran across a case or two where people felt that the cloudy bacterial bloom was a good thing and that when you got it, they felt that some fraction of this excess of bacteria would eventually settle on to the filter media, given some time without disturbance. I realize this may be bogus, that all that should really be needed is the food, the ammonia, but I just wonder if more days with plenty of oxygen and no disturbance(ie. water change) might be good for her. Reading her threads one just gets the feeling that the tank is always getting fiddled with, maybe can never settle down for a series of days of stable cooking!

When my Nitrite-oxidizing-bacteria finally reached maturity, it was after a series of days of cloudy bacterial bloom and nothing being done except maintaining the ammonia-oxidizing-bacteria with 2ppm of ammonia each morning.

ok BTT, ready for you to come bak'at me...
~~waterdrop~~

Hi Waterdrop / Lioness, et alia,

I absolutely agree that a bacterial bloom is a good thing during cycling. I don't think that is bogus at all. In fact, i would suggest that probably 99% of the bacteria which are free-floating will end up settling on the filter media. I wouldn't advise anyone with a bacterial bloom to perform water changes, as that would effectively be un-cycling your tank (to a degree, anyway).

I do think you are underestimating the resiliance of the filter bacteria slightly here, Waterdrop, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to leave it alone for say, 1 week, and see if anything unfolds.

Water changes certainly aren't required as a matter of course during fishless cycling, but they can make all the difference when you hit a stumbling block.

Several very good points have come up on this thread since i last visited, and i'm particularly interested that your water dries to a pink colour, Lioness. Fluoride maybe? I'm afraid i have no idea what effect this could possibly have on the filter bacteria.

chelating agents

These are quite possible the issue. They are used to stop the ammonia and water seporating. What type of ammonia are you using? The issue is that a lot of chelating agents are toxic, thus could be killing and nitogenic bacteria that find their way into the tank.

It may already have been covered, if so I appologise. If it hasen't, my theory as to what is going on is that the ammonia you are using has a toxic type of chelating agent in it, that is caursing the filter bacteria to die as soon as they get into the tank. This may explain why your cycle is going nowhere

Hi Rabbut,

Do you mind me asking your source of this info? I have always thought that, as Waterdrop quotes, chelating agents are safe for cycling. I'd be interested to hear more.

Lioness, all this discussion and i'm still not sure that you actually have a problem, TBH. I'm reasonably confident that a bit of patience will be your saviour. Leave well alone for 1 week and see what happens, thats my advice.

Tolak's idea on the chloramines makes a lot of sense too. Double dose, double dose!

P.S. Waterdrop, i didn't realise that your NOBs had finally reared their ugly head (that really doesn't sound right ). Congrats!

WHAT? You missed the "Sky Blue and Happy Too" thread?? BTT, how could you? Go do a search right now! ~drop~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

when you say you're water dries pink, can you explain what you mean.

i think i have this too. never caused me any problems.

had a dripping tap in the bathroom ages ago, was dripping for ages (this was before my other half moved in and started fixing all the problems i'd been ignoring for the last 3 years i'm good with fish, rubbish with houses!! lol) and if i left it a week or so without wiping down under where the tap was dripping then i'd start to see a pink build up on the porcelain. it'd just wipe off, i always put it down to having fairly hard water, that is based on absolutley no scientific fact whatsoever though, just my personal musings.

at any rate, if what you have is similar then i don't think it's cause for concern in itself, because my tanks are cycled fine using tap water with the same problem.

 

[pastabake]

Its not a hard water issue ... from reading on the Inet ... I've read quite a few links and the all come back with pretty much the same thing.

Pink Stains

What is this pink residue in my bathroom?

Pink residue is generally not a problem with water quality. In fact, pink residue is likely a result of airborne bacteria which produce a pinkish or dark gray film on regularly moist surfaces. Such surfaces include toilet bowls, showerheads, sink drains, and tiles.

Some people have also noted that the pink residue appears in their pet's water bowl, which causes no apparent harm to the pet and is easily cleaned off.

Many experts agree that the bacteria that causes these pink stains is most likely Serratia marcescens, a bacteria which is found naturally in soil, food, and in animals. Serratia, which produce a characteristic red pigment, thrive on moisture, dust, and phosphates and need almost nothing to survive.

The pinkish film often appears during or after construction or remodeling, when dust and dirt containing Serratia bacteria are stirred up. Once the bacteria is airborne, it will seek a moist location in which it can grow. Some people have reported that the pink residue only appears during certain times of the year, when their windows are left open for most of the day. This bacteria is present in a number of environments and wind can carry the airborne bacteria or stir up dust in which the bacteria is present.

The use of activated carbon filters, which remove chlorine from the water, can make the problem worse. The absence of the normal levels of chlorine in tap water allows Serratia to thrive.

So it would seem that it may in fact be caused by too little chlorine or chloramines ... or something else that is using up the chlorine and stopping it from doing its job.

 

[waterdrop]

I trust those little nitrifying bacteria more than any water supplier. It may be a case of your water company adding more chloramine than the dechlorinator you are adding is neuteralizing. Double, or even triple dosing with dechlor won't hurt anything, and will eliminate one variable. Chlora mine will at least slow, if not kill nitrifying bacteria in most cases.

My water came out of the tap smelling like a swimming pool this morning, this is not that unusual. I double dose with Prime all winter long, as well as the rest of the times as weather conditions dictate.

Hi Lioness, BTT, Tolak, pastabake and others...

Lioness is beginning to get ammonia drops now and on her way hopefully to a completed cycle eventually, which means we will all move on to other problems and other newcomers but I took a glance at our comments and would like to come back to something:

I know for sure that I have chloramines in my water system. It may be that Lioness does too (don't remember if you ever found out Lioness, did you?) and upon re-reading Tolak's comment I realize that I never commented about this. I did at a later stage reassess the amount of conditioner I was adding at water changes and found that it was minimal, so I began increasing the amount - not sure but maybe double the amount called for by the conditioner instructions.

Tolak, if indeed you have a feeling from experience, or some information from somewhere, that the Nitrite-Oxidizing-Bacteria are particularly sensitive to chloramines, then this can not be ruled out I don't think as yet another possible cause for the very slow fishless cycling in my case, and possibly others cases.

Its still a bit early to tell whether this might be a factor for Lioness in particular but I just thought (since the pink ring thing was bumping this thread back to the top) that I'd get this out there possibly for Tolak to run across or for posterity after the thread dies out...

~~waterdrop~~