ICK Meds = Death Sentence?

[Socrates]

Well here is my ICK thread:
http/fish.orbust.net/forums/index.php?sh...showtopic=30249

Since the meds went in, I've done a 30% water change each of the two days following and I put the regular type of cartridge back in since it has carbon which should help remove meds.

Basically, I am now convinced that either I way overdosed somehow, the tabs are garbage, it never was ICH, or something else is loose in the tank.

After treating the tank the following happened to my fish:

1. The Gourami. No effect. Didn't have any ICH, doens't have any obvious side effects. He still hides, swims, and eats in the same proportions.

2. The Neons were all very pale, won't eat, tonight one finally rolled over and died. They all hide out either hovering near the bottom or drifing near the back side.

3. The 4 Corys. 2 males have little to no visible signs of anything, but they are no where near active. 1 Female has visibly shredded fins, is palish, and it looks like either skin is sluffing off of her or there is some kind of white stringy stuff attached to her (I'm guessing it's peeling skin). 1 male has the shreded fins, but coloring is otherwise fine, no whitestuff on skin.

4. The Rummys COMPLETELY lost all coloring except for the darker stripes in the tails. The coloring has returned very slightly. These practically looked like opaque albino fish about 24 hours after medicating. They are starting to eat a little, but they are way way way stressed out. A couple are actively twitching a lot of the time.

5. The silver-Tips. These fared the best, after the Gourami. They paled slightly, but basically they all still fight with each other, eat agressively, etc. Same as always. One of them does look a little more stressed than the others and his back end seems to be sagging downward when he's just hovering around in a cave or whatever.

No signs of ICK though...

If I didn't know better I'd say the medicine was just some kind of acid bath that kills ICK by burning it off the fish along with their slime coats, skin, pigmentation, and whatever else is handy. I wish I had found out about raising the temp before the meds were already in

I've had ICK in the tank in the past (15 years ago in the past) and I don't remember the medicine then being this catastrophic, or really having any side effects at all, but that was a long time ago... the memory fades.

I really think I'm going to be short 5 or 6 more fish by the end of the week.

Anything more I can do? My only plan is doing a 30% per day water change with overdoses of Bio-Coat to try and help their poor little skins out...

 

[reg2k2]

I'm sure someone will add to this. I did think three tab's sounded bit more than half-dose ...and yes, med's are actually poisonous,as I understand it...just takes lesser concentrations to kill the parasite than it does the fish. But as u say, maybe it wasn't ich.

The stringy stuff and the shredded fins could both point to bacterial infection. Might try Melafix--Pimafix as well--they can be used together. They're both natural remedies--based on plant oils. Melafix heals wounds, abrasions. Pimafix is supposed to help heal 'body fungus' and internal bacterial infections (may very well help w/ the not-eating).

There's other med's to be suggested, but since the fish seem to have had a bad reaction, the above may be more mild.
See what others say...

Are u sure no signs of ich?

 

[jams.alaskan]

Oh heavens, you must be devastated... Makes you a little leary to try anything else dosen't it? Best of luck to you and your fishies.

ALASKA

 

[breezer40]

Hi Socrates

I am having great success at the moments (any no poorly fish) using a couple of methods other than meds. This link has been a lifesaver not only for me but also my fishys who are recovering nicely.

http/www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion...aq=2&fldAuto=32

I am using heat only method in my fry tank and the salt method in my main tank as the danios can't take the high temps. The salt method has had NO ill effects on the Plec and is very good when the gills are infected with the ICH.

Hope this is useful

 

[Socrates]

Found two more Neon bodies this afternoon. One had no eyes, the other was chewed up pretty bad.

I assume the other fish are picking at them as they die.

Now one could have been the body of one that vanished 3 weeks ago bout could not be found in an extensive serach of the tank.

I count really count all my fish as there are too many hiding places. So I'm slightly in the dark as to if there are other victims yet.

Anything I should be doing proactively other than fishing out bodies?

 

[Angry_Platy]

Frequent water changes....

I hate when this kinda thing happens....I went through a stage when I had 2-3 fish dying each week....fortunately I figured out why (overfeeding), and easily remedied the cause....RIP the little fishies that didn't make it.

Good luck to you....I hope it all goes well at gets back to "normal"

 

[crazie.eddie]

Daily water changes of 30% maybe too much. I would reduce this to about 15% if you plan to do the daily water changes.

I battled ich in my 37 gallon tank with 2 pl*cos, cardinal tetras, and dwarf gouramis without any meds. I just used high temps, daily water changes (with lite gravel cleaning), and aquarium salt. No fish showed signs of distress and ALL my fish survived. I'm always reluctant to use any kind of meds, since some meds can stress fish out.

 

[Socrates]

Daily water changes of 30% maybe too much. I would reduce this to about 15% if you plan to do the daily water changes.

I battled ich in my 37 gallon tank with 2 pl*cos, cardinal tetras, and dwarf gouramis without any meds. I just used high temps, daily water changes (with lite gravel cleaning), and aquarium salt. No fish showed signs of distress and ALL my fish survived. I'm always reluctant to use any kind of meds, since some meds can stress fish out.

Had known ahead of time about the temperature method it's all I would have done. In fact, I've been increasing the temp and it's up to 80 right now. Where should I stop?

Never the less, though, the meds were already used, so that's the situation I have to deal with.

I'm backing off the water changes since basically, my neons, save one, are wiped out, and none of the other fish show any signs of getting worse. The Corys are stable, and the Rummy's are slightly improved. Actually the female Cory with white stringy stuff no longer has it, so that's good news. I expect the last neon is just sitting on a time bomb, but there's nothing I can do for him.

Anyway, what minimum temp do I need to be sure any Ich can't make it through?

My fish supposedly have this temperature range:
Fish Temp > Temp <
Neons 73 81
Gourami 72 82
Silver Tips 64 82
Corys 72 79
Rummy Nose 72 77

If I stay over 77 for too long, am I going to start losing Rummy-Noses?

 

[Inchworm]

Hi Socrates

At this point it might be a good idea to evaluate the situation.

When you first diagnosed ich, did your fish have white spots on them that looked like they were sprinkled with salt? Or, did it look like patches or something else? Did the corys have these white spots at the beginning?

The reason I'm asking is because your corys sound like they have a case of bacterial infection, not ich. Also, corys are somewhat resistant to ich, so if they showed up the spots early on, chances are that it may not have be been ich after all.

What else might have been going on in the tank before the disease showed up? Was there a rapid change in temperature, either warmer or cooler? When was the last time you did a water change before this time? Do you have good aeration?

It seems to me that if your fish had ich, it was cured rather quickly. BTW, did you add any salt during the treatment? (I hope not.)

 

[Socrates]

No question about it was ICH. White salt grins sprinkled over the NEons and Rummy's.

No other fish showed spots. The Rummy's had just a very few spots and I would never have seen them if it hadn't been for the obvious spotting on the neons.

Now I lost a Neon totally randomly to no obvious cause about a week after getting them. That was, I think about a month ago. That's the only other death I've had. There was a 1ppm ammonia spike right after that that was caused by me being totally unable to find the body and the bio filter being bio-spira and only a week old.

Right before the Ich showed up, I did have about three days of a mild ammonia spike (.5 or so) followed by a mild nitrite spike (about .3). That was almost certainly from overfeeding. The Ich started literally the day that the nitrite returned to 0. In fact, I noticed it because I was sitting next to the tank doing my tests.

Before "treatment" with tabs, the Cory's were great, absolutely fine, my happiest fish actually. For them, I can definitely say all their problems started with the treatment.

I think the problem wih these fizz tabs is that there is a high conentration of medicine in one place while they disolve into the water. I remember seeing a cory swim right over one as it fizzled. Since the female has the most fin damage, I have to assume it was her.

Now, the amount of sprinkling is a different thing. I've seen pictures where fish look like this:
http/www.vet.cornell.edu/Public/FishDise...ts/Ich/ICH1.JPG
But mine looked MORE like this (meaning some grains, but not a zillion of them):
http/www.blueridgekoi.com/Ich_2.jpg

Now. Are there other symptms for Ich? The last neon that died I had the "opportnity" to watch die and so was able to keep him from getting pecked at. The fish looked fine other than being dead.

I also know for sure I overdosed. I'm not sure what I thought half dose for SMALL or SCALELESS fish meant, but for some reason it went in one eye and out my ear... I put in 3 tabs which is 30 gallons worth full strength into a 40 gallon tank that doesn't have 40 gallons in it. I should have put probably 1.5 tabs. 2 tops.

Oh well, live and learn.

I'm not opposed to believing that the Cory's have something else besides Ich or side effects, but it would be a heck of a coincidence.

 

[breezer40]

If you are trying to get rid of ICH with heat them you will have to get it up to over 86..make sure all the fishys can stand these temps..some such as danios have a hard time with it however most do very well. crazie.eddie is right about the salt I use it even with plecs and loaches and so far no deaths. Meds can be more deadly than the ICH after all they are a poison.

 

[crazie.eddie]

If you are trying to get rid of ICH with heat them you will have to get it up to over 86..make sure all the fishys can stand these temps

I only got it up to 83....I got scared with my cardinal tetras.


BTW, if you are using salt, make sure it's diluted in water first...then pour the solution in the tank over a long period of time.

 

[Socrates]

OK.

So I've lost 4 neons, and now one Cory.

I'm very very sure it was Ich followed by an overdose of meds.

HOWEVER, my fish are MUCH happier with the main light turned off than with it on, and coloring is still not that great.

So I took a video of the death throes of the Cory. I am not posting this to be greusome or anything like that. I am posting it for the purpose of having some of the experst here look at the movement, etc, and make sure that this movement is not a sign of something much much worse.

This is Cory that looked like her skin sort of peeling off (white thready stuff on her for a while, then it was gone).

Here is the video:
http/www.rmrcpa.com/lgk/tank_pics/Movie.wmv

 

[Inchworm]

Hi Socrates

From looking at the pictures, I'd agree that your fish did have ich. But if the spots are all gone, don't worry about it any more, for now.

Personally, I think you have something else going on too. Ich and bacteria such as Columnaris are always present in a tank; they are hard to avoid, but seldom cause problems. It is when a fish's immune system is compromised that they take hold and cause the fish to become sick.

This could have been caused by the medicine. (Could be that you got a bad batch.) Or, whatever stressed the fish enough to cause them to break out in ich could have also left them susceptible to other problems.

It sounds like your corys have a bacterial infection, which is a problem that they are more prone to get than ich. It is usually brought on by stressors such as overcrowding, low oxygen content in the water, overfeeding, high nitrites, sudden rise in temperature, or overstocked tanks.

The first thing to do is to make sure that the water is clean and well oxygenated. If you take the treasure chest off and add an airstone, it will move the surface more consistently and the water will absorb more oxygen. Keep your temperature no higher than 75 degrees until the infection is gone in order to inhibit the growth of bacteria. (But if you've raised the temperature to treat the Ich, bring it down very slowly.) Feed lightly.

This alone might help if it is not too late. If you want to try medicine, Kanacyn is my first choice since it treats both primary and secondary bacterial infections, but Maracyn AND Maracyn2 may be used.

It was so sad to watch that movie. I do hope your fish will get better soon.

 

[Socrates]

Inch,

I have an air stone running on the other side of the tank in addition to the chest, also that surface movement is with the flow turned way way down. I just finished feeding the other fish, and I hadn't turned it up. Normally I have bubbles piling up on parts of the surface and the water is loaded with tiny bubbles racing around in the current. Do you think I need to tak a quick video of my normal aeration and surface movent for people to look at? I though I had enough, but now you make me wonder.

This morning, my three remaining Corys are back to swimming in a group and foarging in the rocks rather than just alying around.

From looking at the pictures
Now those aren't pics from my tank, just pics I found on a Google search. But the second one is what my neons looked like. So I'm pretty sure it was Ich.

I will start bringing down the temps. I was running at 75 normally since that is the nice average of the avrages for all the ranges of the fish.

As far as the bacteria infection. Does the video lead us to believe that? Or was it something I described earlier. I'd like to just know what to look for. You can probably understand my reluctance to medicate too quickly if it isn't absolutely necessary.

I am pretty sure the Ich was brough on by the strees of three days of slightly elevated ammonia and then three days of slightly elevated nitrites. This was almost like a mini cycle. I had way overfed leading up to that, and I think the relatively new bacteria needed to expand it's population to keep up.