High Ammonia; No Sick Fish So Far

[whuangs01]

Hi everyone,

I just setup a new 12 gallon tank on July 4, 2008. First of all, I have 15 Neons, 7 Tiger barbs, 6 Gouramis , and 4 angel fishs. The water got cloudy with Ammonia 4, Nitrit 0, and Nitrat 0 throughout last week 7/14-7/20; however, after I changed the 25 % water on July 18, water got clear out on July 21. I tested the Ammonia on July 22; Ammonia got increase to 8--Nitrite 0, and Nitrate 0. None of my fishs got affected; they are still very energetic and fine; No sign shows of any infection or damage. Not sure should I leave it as it is, or need to take a quick action.

Any thoughts or experince from anyone???


Thanks,

 

[jglover]

I just setup a new 12 gallon tank on July 4, 2008. First of all, I have 15 Neons, 7 Tiger barbs, 6 Gouramis , and 4 angel fishs. The water got cloudy with Ammonia 4, Nitrit 0, and Nitrat 0 throughout last week 7/14-7/20; however, after I changed the 25 % water on July 18, water got clear out on July 21. I tested the Ammonia on July 22; Ammonia got increase to 8--Nitrite 0, and Nitrate 0. None of my fishs got affected; they are still very energetic and fine; No sign shows of any infection or damage. Not sure should I leave it as it is, or need to take a quick action.

Hi,

You have *way* too many fish for a 12 gallon tank. At the most this tank should support maybe 6 neons and one dwarf gourami. The barbs will be very aggressive, especially in such cramped quarters and the angels will grow way too large for that tank.....plus as they get larger they will eat the neons.

A general, but not always accurate, rule of thumb is approximately 1 inch of adult fish for each gallon of water. Neons grow to about an inch and half to two inches, so you have about 20-30 inches of fish in neons alone. Tigers are a 2 inch fish, so 14 inches of tiger barbs, 12 inches for the dwarf gouramis and conservative;ly, another 12-16 inces for the angels.....so all totaled you have about 60 incehs of fish in a 12 gallon tank. This tank is overstocked by about a factor of 5 or so. With the bioload in this tank I doubt you will ever get you water parameters in order, the tank is just way too overstocked.

Sorry, but that is the way it is. With your chosen mix of fish, a small school of neons, one small gourami and maybe three small cories is about all you can house in this tank, and that would be pushing the tank. Adding some live plants will also help and if you overfilter the tank once it is cycled, you should be okay with that stocking level. At this point though, with that amount of fish you will never get the water parameters correct, even with massive water changes and the fish will be severely stressed from the cramped quarters. No amount of water changes will help the stress levels and it will kill off the fish until the tank reaches a population it can support.

Your best best is going to be to try to re-home all of the fish and try to cycle the tank without fish. Then add a stocking level your tank can support.

John

 

[gaz gun man]

I just setup a new 12 gallon tank on July 4, 2008. First of all, I have 15 Neons, 7 Tiger barbs, 6 Gouramis , and 4 angel fishs. The water got cloudy with Ammonia 4, Nitrit 0, and Nitrat 0 throughout last week 7/14-7/20; however, after I changed the 25 % water on July 18, water got clear out on July 21. I tested the Ammonia on July 22; Ammonia got increase to 8--Nitrite 0, and Nitrate 0. None of my fishs got affected; they are still very energetic and fine; No sign shows of any infection or damage. Not sure should I leave it as it is, or need to take a quick action.

Hi,

You have *way* too many fish for a 12 gallon tank. At the most this tank should support maybe 6 neons and one dwarf gourami. The barbs will be very aggressive, especially in such cramped quarters and the angels will grow way too large for that tank.....plus as they get larger they will eat the neons.

A general, but not always accurate, rule of thumb is approximately 1 inch of adult fish for each gallon of water. Neons grow to about an inch and half to two inches, so you have about 20-30 inches of fish in neons alone. Tigers are a 2 inch fish, so 14 inches of tiger barbs, 12 inches for the dwarf gouramis and conservative;ly, another 12-16 inces for the angels.....so all totaled you have about 60 incehs of fish in a 12 gallon tank. This tank is overstocked by about a factor of 5 or so. With the bioload in this tank I doubt you will ever get you water parameters in order, the tank is just way too overstocked.

Sorry, but that is the way it is. With your chosen mix of fish, a small school of neons, one small gourami and maybe three small cories is about all you can house in this tank, and that would be pushing the tank. Adding some live plants will also help and if you overfilter the tank once it is cycled, you should be okay with that stocking level. At this point though, with that amount of fish you will never get the water parameters correct, even with massive water changes and the fish will be severely stressed from the cramped quarters. No amount of water changes will help the stress levels and it will kill off the fish until the tank reaches a population it can support.

Your best best is going to be to try to re-home all of the fish and try to cycle the tank without fish. Then add a stocking level your tank can support.

John

I would agree with that

Also forget what your local shop said, alot of them are known for giving out bad advice, at the end of the day they just want your money.

I am surprised your fish have not died yet with such high ammonia - what test kit are you using? and just because they arent dead does not mean they arent in pain, or suffering

 

[Corleone]

In the defense of the fish stores, they've got a big incentive to move live stock. If it sits in their tank very long, it'll eat more than it's worth, and if it dies on them, it's a loss all the way. Better they die in your tank than the stores, from a business perspective.

It's a common thing in the hobby to have a love-hate relationship with them. On the one hand, they often can't be trusted as far as you could throw them, but on the other, we depend on them as the lifeblood of the hobby.

 

[whuangs01]

I just setup a new 12 gallon tank on July 4, 2008. First of all, I have 15 Neons, 7 Tiger barbs, 6 Gouramis , and 4 angel fishs. The water got cloudy with Ammonia 4, Nitrit 0, and Nitrat 0 throughout last week 7/14-7/20; however, after I changed the 25 % water on July 18, water got clear out on July 21. I tested the Ammonia on July 22; Ammonia got increase to 8--Nitrite 0, and Nitrate 0. None of my fishs got affected; they are still very energetic and fine; No sign shows of any infection or damage. Not sure should I leave it as it is, or need to take a quick action.

Hi,

You have *way* too many fish for a 12 gallon tank. At the most this tank should support maybe 6 neons and one dwarf gourami. The barbs will be very aggressive, especially in such cramped quarters and the angels will grow way too large for that tank.....plus as they get larger they will eat the neons.

A general, but not always accurate, rule of thumb is approximately 1 inch of adult fish for each gallon of water. Neons grow to about an inch and half to two inches, so you have about 20-30 inches of fish in neons alone. Tigers are a 2 inch fish, so 14 inches of tiger barbs, 12 inches for the dwarf gouramis and conservative;ly, another 12-16 inces for the angels.....so all totaled you have about 60 incehs of fish in a 12 gallon tank. This tank is overstocked by about a factor of 5 or so. With the bioload in this tank I doubt you will ever get you water parameters in order, the tank is just way too overstocked.

Sorry, but that is the way it is. With your chosen mix of fish, a small school of neons, one small gourami and maybe three small cories is about all you can house in this tank, and that would be pushing the tank. Adding some live plants will also help and if you overfilter the tank once it is cycled, you should be okay with that stocking level. At this point though, with that amount of fish you will never get the water parameters correct, even with massive water changes and the fish will be severely stressed from the cramped quarters. No amount of water changes will help the stress levels and it will kill off the fish until the tank reaches a population it can support.

Your best best is going to be to try to re-home all of the fish and try to cycle the tank without fish. Then add a stocking level your tank can support.

John

I would agree with that

Also forget what your local shop said, alot of them are known for giving out bad advice, at the end of the day they just want your money.

I am surprised your fish have not died yet with such high ammonia - what test kit are you using? and just because they arent dead does not mean they arent in pain, or suffering

I use API FreshWater Master Test Kit

 

[Corleone]

That's a good kit, I use it as well. The nitrAte test is finicky, though - make sure you follow ALL the steps, including annoying stuff like shaking the bottle for a full minute and flipping the tube upside down five times. The ammonia test is pretty reliable, though, so long as you're not using too many drops. Considering your stocking level, your ammonia doesn't sound like a false reading, TBH.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

have a look at the link in my sig 'whats cycling' which explains what you need to do to get your water parameters back in order.

however as others have said you do have simply far too many fish for the tank which will mean you'll probably never get them straight, so you can just bumble along and hope for the best and watch your fish die off one by one, or you can take some/all of them back to the store and get the tank cycled properly.

Personally I would advise taking them all back and doing a fishless cycle, again there is a link in my sig explaining this.

 

[bronzecat]

In the defense of the fish stores, they've got a big incentive to move live stock. If it sits in their tank very long, it'll eat more than it's worth, and if it dies on them, it's a loss all the way. Better they die in your tank than the stores, from a business perspective.

It's a common thing in the hobby to have a love-hate relationship with them. On the one hand, they often can't be trusted as far as you could throw them, but on the other, we depend on them as the lifeblood of the hobby.

Hi
Its no defence at all, in fact isn't counter productive in the long run? i.e. Give crap advice, people that dont know any different take the advice, buy the tank and fish, fish die! Customer goes elsewhere......etc

But really, to say its a defence is just condoning the shops attitude

 

[toshapetriji]

Its no defence at all, in fact isn't counter productive in the long run? i.e. Give crap advice, people that dont know any different take the advice, buy the tank and fish, fish die! Customer goes elsewhere......etc

I would agree with that entirely. One LFS has already lost my business by giving bad advice and I´m new to the hobby. Can´t beat good advice to build up your clientèle, may take longer but long term it makes pounds.

 

[Corleone]

In the defense of the fish stores, they've got a big incentive to move live stock. If it sits in their tank very long, it'll eat more than it's worth, and if it dies on them, it's a loss all the way. Better they die in your tank than the stores, from a business perspective.

It's a common thing in the hobby to have a love-hate relationship with them. On the one hand, they often can't be trusted as far as you could throw them, but on the other, we depend on them as the lifeblood of the hobby.

Hi
Its no defence at all, in fact isn't counter productive in the long run? i.e. Give crap advice, people that dont know any different take the advice, buy the tank and fish, fish die! Customer goes elsewhere......etc

But really, to say its a defence is just condoning the shops attitude

Customer already bought a highly profitable tank, filter, heater, etc, and was probably convinced by the same advice to buy profitable chemicals, salt, cycling products. The store's made more from somebody who may have only kept fish a week and quit forever than they would from a successful tank set up with good advice and kept running for a year or more.

 

[bronzecat]

In the defense of the fish stores, they've got a big incentive to move live stock. If it sits in their tank very long, it'll eat more than it's worth, and if it dies on them, it's a loss all the way. Better they die in your tank than the stores, from a business perspective.

It's a common thing in the hobby to have a love-hate relationship with them. On the one hand, they often can't be trusted as far as you could throw them, but on the other, we depend on them as the lifeblood of the hobby.

Hi
Its no defence at all, in fact isn't counter productive in the long run? i.e. Give crap advice, people that dont know any different take the advice, buy the tank and fish, fish die! Customer goes elsewhere......etc

But really, to say its a defence is just condoning the shops attitude

Customer already bought a highly profitable tank, filter, heater, etc, and was probably convinced by the same advice to buy profitable chemicals, salt, cycling products. The store's made more from somebody who may have only kept fish a week and quit forever than they would from a successful tank set up with good advice and kept running for a year or more.

But.....had the advice been good advice then the customer may have continued fish keeping for many many years and increased their number of tanks etc etc..... A good, long lasting business is one that continues to serve a returning customer base. If one of our lfs hadn't managed to kill 3 bettas in 3 days through their negligence, they may have got more of my money.
But thats life today.....lots of greedy people trying to make a fast buck, with as little effort as possible, and no regards for customer satisfaction.

 

[Corleone]

Business practices like that have been the subject of extensive study for decades in many areas, and it rarely works that way, especially with hobbies and impulse buys, of which small pets are often both, and are so often replaced with new disposable pets as they die - this is the same situation by which car dealerships suffer from well informed and satisfied customers and profit from selling disingenuous and frivolous charges and encouraging insufficient maintenance, only a typical car can last a decade under abuse. Proper information has always been available, and hasn't stopped return business.

 

[whuangs01]

Thanks everyone,
I have to say; my fishs are still healthy; No sign of illness; Just tested the water; Same result; Ammonia properly gone up more than 8 now; PH is 7.6. all other are zero. Can someone in the Bio or chemistry field provide more detail to this? According all outside sources and websites, such condition will definitely kill my fishs. It has been two weeks. Fishs are still alive for which I am very happy. And please stay on the topic here

Thanks for all your comments

 

[Corleone]

I'm still impressed the neons and gouramis are going, but tiger barbs at the very least are tough as nails, and are still used by some people for old fashioned fish in no water change cycles with at least some survival rate.

Just because you're not recognizing signs of stress or illness doesn't mean either is there, and you shouldn't be gambling with it either way.

 

[shelaghfishface]

it will either kill or fish or shorten there life dramaticaly ( same thing i spose)
you need to do a water change like right now, to get the levels down, do 30% then wait an hour then test again, if they are still high then do another one, i think its a good idea to leave 2-3 hours between water changes tho ( miss wiggle will tell you more about that), try to rehome the fish or return them to your fish supplier, if you cant then try to get some mature filter media from someone,this will help you along no end,and if you cant do either,then get ready for the hard work of lots of testing and water changes, everyday possibly twice daily