Here's Another One Considering To Go Marine!

[maurizio]

Hello folks,
for the time being I'm collecting info to answer myself the main question: can I do it?
 
What I have:
- a 240 l Eheim tank running with low-end brackish, 2xT5, Eheim 3 350 professionel filter
- a bit more than 3 years experience with the above, my very first tank. Fish are happy
- room for a 42 x 35 x 40+ cm sump in the cabinet (LxDxH)
- a quite hard tap water, with a stable 40 mg/l of NO3
 
What I'm dreaming of:
- a FOWLR tank. Maybe later I'll consider to add some easy corals
 
Questions:
- Same I asked at the local fish store: RO is not an option (I find unethical to run a machine with a 75% rate of waste water). Is there any other way to go marine without RO? He said as long as I stay away from corals and anemones, fish can handle that level. Mines are definitely doing it, but marine fish??

I can collect rainwater, though
- In that little, simple sump I can make in the cabinet, I'm willing to add a skimmer, a Chaetomorpha cultivation, and two small heaters. Is it feasible at all? Is the size big enough to even consider the idea?
- There's a lot on the web (including this forum) about algae scrubbers, but mostly from biased sources. I'm very willing to go that way, but I want unbiased opinions. If I do, could I really avoid the Chaetomorpha and/or the skimmer?
 
Enough for now, more will come, I'm afraid...

 
Thanks!
 
 
 

 

[RRaquariums]

So I'm no expert but I have been keeping my saltwater tank going and my clownfish, scooter blenny and neon goby all seem very happy and healthy so at the very least I'm keeping them alive.
I'll try to answer your questions based on my experience and while not everything may agree with how I do things it's up to each person to set up what works best for them.
Let's start with water. I do currently use RODI water but I started out with simple tap water. Most hardy fish will do just fine in most tap water so that won't be a huge probelm and even some soft corals such as mushrooms can do just fine in tap water to.
The reason I personaly went to RO water was I fully intend to have a large reef tank so it was the best option for me.
With tap water you will probably have a bit more trouble with algae so that's something to keep in mind.
But if you just do fish to start off with you can use lighting that's not very conducive to algae growth and if you maintain a good sized clean up crew algae can be kept under control.
A sump has a lot of good things that come with it but there are a few downsides as well.
The advantages are you can easily house equipment such as heaters, skimmers, and more.
It also allows you to have a larger amount of live rock and or filter media which depending on how heavy you want to stock the tank can come in very handy plus you are adding more gallons of water to your system so that will make it more stable.
Down sides are that a sump dose cost a bit to set up because you will need a reliable return pump and plumbing also the sump itself can be expensive depending on what you use.
As for skimemers and algae scrubbers IMO it all depends on your style of tank and how heavy you stock it.
If you want to do a heavily stocked tank then a skimmer will certainly help keep the tank and fish healthy. If you choose to go with a lighter stocking and add lots of live rock and keep up with water changes then you can very easily live without a skimmer.
And really the same goes for a refugium or algae scrubber.
Basically if you have a good amount of seasoned live rock and a good clean up crew, light stocking and keep up with a 10%-20% water change per week I see no reason you can get away with having no skimmer or scrubber.
Now I know saltwater is a hobby that has a million diffenint ways to do things and everyone has there own opinions on how to do things so I encorage you to read a lot and search for more advice before starting but I certainly think you can set up your tank as a full salwater and maybe even reef someday. Remember the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.
So good luck and hopefully this was at least be a little helpful for you

 

[LyraGuppi]

I can't help much, but I'll be following.

 

[maurizio]

Thanks a lot RR,
indeed some good advice! How big's yours? You've got just 3 fishes? Sump?
 
Plenty of time for asking here and reading, my present tank is healthy, so I have no hurry to take it apart. So, learning curve, for now.
 
My plan is to keep things as easy as possible, so stocking will be very strict: only small things (gobies, blennies and the like), and plenty of cleaners/critters (which I love anyway!).
 
I'm much willing to go for the sump, but only if I can find the right acrylic tank able to make the most out of the small room I have in the cabinet. That would give me less than 60 liters of added volume, so if I can't get that, I'll simply give up the whole idea. If I find the sump, I'll have to use an overflow box, since the main tank is not drilled, but that's OK.
 
Then it's about what to put in the sump. You're the second person that mentions live rock for the sump; but if you have a good quantity of them in the main tank I imagine one'd rather go for something else in the sump, such as the skimmer and some macroalgae, all things I'm willing to squeeze in. Or am I wrong here, and LR is always the best?
 
One thing I forgot to ask is: is that true you can do without a filter, if you have all the above??!

I was planning to run my Eheim as for freshwater, after cycling it with the new water, but at the shop I've been told you can make without it, as long as you have LR and a sump!

I think I'd have the filter running no matter what, once I'll learn what to put in there, for a marine tank!
 
Cheers!
 
Maurizio

 

[RRaquariums]

My fish are in a 25 gallon tank right now but I'm working on setting up a 230 gallon reef tank that they will be moving into.

Since you are working with a confined amount of space something you might want to look into is a hang on back skimmer this could either hang on the sump giving you more space for other things or hang on the main tank.
People might disagree with me but IMO in that small of a sump you couldn't really house enough macro algae to make a huge difference now that's not to say it would hurt anything to add some just that it probably won't make a big difference in filtration capacity.
Idk how much live rock you are thinking of adding to the main tank but because of your sump size rather then adding live rock to it I'd add some ceramic media rather then live rock in the sump.
As for needing a filter no you don't need one because your sump is your filter. Think of it as a huge filter with media, sponges and return pump.
IMO a brackish tank is way harder then a full on saltwater tank because it's a lot more fragile so I don't think you will have any problems.

 

[maurizio]

Thanks RR,
I have the same fear about the size of the sump I could have vs. macroalgae housing. And that's exactly my problem: I have to be sure that, given the space I have, it makes any sense at all to have a sump with algae: if the room available is not enough to guarantee a decent/good filtration, I'd give up. That's why I find the scrubber solution (either vertical, by one side, or floating on the surface of ther sump) very appealing: it doesn't steal much space.
 
Live rock: dunno yet in terms of quantity (as much as it's needed, let's say), but I won't save money on quality, that's for sure. And agreed, in the sump I'd have some basic mechanical filtration, then algae, and the sklmmer.
 
About the external filter, I suppose since I'm so restricted with the sump, why not adding more filtration with my Eheim? More rubble LR could go in there....
 
About brackish being difficult, I read this point of view in many places, but my experience (as a total beginner) is actually quite different. The point is, most fishes belonging to brackish environments can actually stand significant variations of salinity, and often also quite dirty waters! That makes your life quite easy. That was one of the reasons why I choose brackish in the first place. That, and the fact that I wanted to second the quite hard water conditions we have in Denmark, again to make my life easier. At the moment my fish are in freshwater, because as soon as I add salt the diatoms come back. That's the only problem I had, have, and apparently will always have. Thanks to those tons of NO3 coming from the tap...

 

[RRaquariums]

Well I honestly wouldn't scrap your idea based only on the macro algae option. Something to keep in mind is that while the sump may not be big enough to house a ton of algae if you set the main tank up in more of a lagoon style you can grow tons of the algae right in the main tank and If done right it's beautiful.
But even if you decide to scrap the algae growing part you are totally capable of having a great saltwater tank with good filtration just using live rock and filter media.
There is no set rules for filtering a saltwater tank you can use a combination of things or just one thing such as live rock theres really are a lot of options and I encourage you to read up on them because if one thing won't work there's always another way.
Another thing is my saltwater fish have proven to be very adoptable to verging salinity levels so it's not a huge worry with them either.

 

[maurizio]

Wow, that's a GREAT idea!

  I've been always wondering why people don't use (macro-)algae to their benefit, putting them in the main tank... So, it CAN be done! That is definitely the way to go for me. That little sump of mine, with whatever I can squeeze in (perhaps a deep sand bed? A skimmer. Some unsightly algae like Chaetomorpha), and a good selection of nice-looking algae in the display tank. This would also solve the aesthetic problem of having bare live rocks, since corals & anemones are out of the picture. At least for  agood while.
 
I wonder if, starting with tap water NO3 at 40 mg/l, macro-algae could ever risk starvation, in such a tank...
 
I was also thinking if I can use my external filter as a pump, too. I found people suggesting and using it as a return pump from the sump, but I couldn't find support for my alternative idea: using it instead of that scary overflow box (--> no noise, and no risks connected with its use), to take the water from the tank into the sump. Then I'd simply need a return pump matching the filter rate. I can't find anybody doing this, so I guess there's a flaw I can't see??

 

[maurizio]

Hmm, maybe I got it...: if the return pump fails, the external filter will keep pouring the whole aquarium water into the sump. I.e. the apartment.

 
Unless its intake is close to the surface....

 

[RRaquariums]

Well when dealing with a sump it's a,ways best to go with the least amount of things that could break or stop working and flood your house.
So an overflow and a single return pump is the best option because if you have it set up right and either stops working for some reason the tank won't drain out completlty and you won't haveto deal with both the loss of your fish and inverts but also a flooded house.
I do not have any experience with overflow boxes so I really can't give advice on them but I'd suggest really researching them and seeing if they are a good option.
If they are not a good option you may just want to consider not having a sump.
If you have a external filter and if for some reason you needed to add a HOB skimmer all of those can work right on the main tank.
Also if you want a deep sand bed put it in the main tank.
IMO a sump is a nice thing to have but again it's not the only way to go and it's totaly possible to have a stand alone display tank.

 

[maurizio]

Thanks a lot RR,
back to books for now!

 

[RRaquariums]

No problem feel free to pm if you ever have other questions and I'll be glad to help

 

[maurizio]

I'm back!
 
Sitting on my sofa, I have, let's see... 8 books on marine aquariums surrounding me. And it's like this since a couple of months. So, question time again. Hopefully you folks will help again.
 
From what I learned, I'm dreaming of this: FOWLR and lots of (beautiful) macroalgae in the tank. 43x35x40 cm sump.
 
I hope I can get the sump built. It's the only way to maximize use of the available space. Assuming this, I'm thinking of having 3 sections:

• inlet + skimmer
• central deep sand bed (15-20 cm?)
• pump

No room for bubble traps or other frills. From what I see, a slim (Deltec, Tunze, ...?) skimmer and a small (Eheim) pump should take less than 20 cm, thus leaving 20 cm in length for the refugium.
 
I find this solution (reefworkshop.com) quite appealing, I could squeeze skimmer AND pump in section 3, saving space:
 

But I read bad things of having the skimmer at the end.... Opinions?
Here, the skimmer outlet is back in section 1, thus reducing microbubbles. But for me, the possibility of having skimmer and pump together in section 3 both along the short side of the sump sounds good. Contradict me, please!
 
Now for a silly one:
 
Can I use the pump of the skimmer to suck the water from the display tank, thus avoiding the overflow box?? (If the skimmer pump is strong enough... ). The risk of the sump flooding could be eliminated by setting the intake in the tank high enough, thus stopping the flow when the tank water lowers to a certain level.... This to me looks the only overflow risk in the whole system, but maybe I'm forgetting something, what do I know???
 
Last about live rocks: I know nothing about them, but I read a lot on how they should be. These guys have what seems to me amazing live rocks: very airy, and so rich in life. I know most of you out there are in the US, but for the Europeans...: any experience with whitecorals.com? How do these rocks look to you? I know, it's just a couple of pictures...
 
 
T H A N K S!!!
 
 
 
 
 

 

[maurizio]

  Anyone? RR?

 

[RRaquariums]

Ok sorry been crazy busy lately. Anyways I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

I'll start with how I design sumps and some of the things I've learned when building one for a skimmer. In my sump I put the skimmer in the end so it's the last thing in line before the return pump pushes the water back up to my main tank. It pulls a lot of skimmate and overall I'm very happy with its performance however that being said I can certanly see the benefit of having it in the first chamber. It would catch anything coming down from the main tank before it could get caught on rocks or in the sandbed to any other places. Plus in a smaller system like you are talking micro bubbles can be a pain if they don't have a chance to disappear before getting sucked in the return pump. So here's how I'd set up the sump for the tank your talking about. Have the inflow from the tank enter into a first chamber I'd suggest making chambers because it helps slow water down makes sure things are separated and will dissolve micro bibles. In that first chamber have your skimmer and have the outflow from the skimmer pushing into the second chamber now becouse you talk of having lots of macroalgae in the display tank I'd do away with a deep sandbed and use that chamber for more rock or other types of media. On the skimmer go with the biggest skimmer you can fit and afford this will be doing the bulk of your filtration it's the back none of a good tank IMO and is worth the space and money in a saltwater tank. To answer your question about using the intake from the skimmer for sucking water out of the main tank I do not think its a good idea because you will end up dialing up and down your skimmer to get it tuned just right and getting that flow synced up with a return pump flow would be almost imposable. An overflow of some sort is always best IMO. In your last chamber is where the return would go it usually doesn't take up much room at all. As for that live rock if what they show in the picture is what you actually get I'd stay away from that stuff it looks uncured and would start a big die off once put in your tank and curing live rock is not only messy but can take months. Idk for sure though so maybe try to call or email the company and ask what if it's cured or not and where they get it from exactly. If they don't answer or can't give you a straight answer stay away from them. I'm sure this brings up more questions and idk if I answered all of yours well enough so feel free to ask more and I will try to answer faster this time