Help!

[Naughts]

Is there any chance the tank could have been contaminated with something? Something like air freshener or deodorant sprayed in the room, some perfume or hand cream or something else on your hands before putting them in the tank? Have seen someone lose fish like this, and it turned out to be their mother using windex to clean the tank glass, and the person was accidentally touching the glass then the water, without knowing about the chemical.

Addressing the Shimmies in Live Bearers - RateMyFishTank.com

Dealing with aquarium fish disease is a fact of life in the aquarium hobby. Take the time to learn about the shimmies, or livebearer disease, to protect your fish.

www.ratemyfishtank.com

Go to bed and get some sleep. Then tomorrow, we'll find out your GH and pH, whether from your post here or from your water company. It won't hurt to double check the actual numbers, but there's nothing more you can do tonight, so get some rest! If you're tired out tomorrow, you'll have a harder time taking care of your fish and reading up on different diseases.

@Byron , @Naughts , @emeraldking @mbsqw1d any help here appreciated! The corkscrew swimming corylover describes, brings up results for Whirling Disease. This person and posts on another forum, say that whirling disease can affect other types of aquarium fish, but the more scientific articles I've found refer specifically to the salmonid family, and claim it doesn't spread to fish of different species. https://www.alberta.ca/whirling-disease.aspx

Whirling Disease - Invasion Biology Introduced Species Summary Project - Columbia University

So my main suspects are the shimmies, some kind of contaminant, or possibly another kind of bacterial infection. Any thoughts?

WhirlIng can result from parasites in the brain but also any brain malfunction.
With the absence of test results it is hard to pin down.
Frequent large water changes with gravel cleaning will reduce any ammonia or parasites.

 

[seangee]

WhirlIng can result from parasites in the brain but also any brain malfunction.
With the absence of test results it is hard to pin down.
Frequent large water changes with gravel cleaning will reduce any ammonia or parasites.

I recently had this in my community tank. I never found a cure. Every time I lost a fish another would start a few weeks later. In the end I took the really hard decision to euthanise all the fish that might be affected. Some species seem far more prone than others. Some spin and some just swim almost vertically with their head up. I concluded that it was most likely a protozoan infection that had reached their brain.

 

[corylover5]

Is there any chance the tank could have been contaminated with something? Something like air freshener or deodorant sprayed in the room, some perfume or hand cream or something else on your hands before putting them in the tank? Have seen someone lose fish like this, and it turned out to be their mother using windex to clean the tank glass, and the person was accidentally touching the glass then the water, without knowing about the chemical.

Addressing the Shimmies in Live Bearers - RateMyFishTank.com

Dealing with aquarium fish disease is a fact of life in the aquarium hobby. Take the time to learn about the shimmies, or livebearer disease, to protect your fish.

www.ratemyfishtank.com

Go to bed and get some sleep. Then tomorrow, we'll find out your GH and pH, whether from your post here or from your water company. It won't hurt to double check the actual numbers, but there's nothing more you can do tonight, so get some rest! If you're tired out tomorrow, you'll have a harder time taking care of your fish and reading up on different diseases.

@Byron , @Naughts , @emeraldking @mbsqw1d any help here appreciated! The corkscrew swimming corylover describes, brings up results for Whirling Disease. This person and posts on another forum, say that whirling disease can affect other types of aquarium fish, but the more scientific articles I've found refer specifically to the salmonid family, and claim it doesn't spread to fish of different species. https://www.alberta.ca/whirling-disease.aspx

Whirling Disease - Invasion Biology Introduced Species Summary Project - Columbia University

So my main suspects are the shimmies, some kind of contaminant, or possibly another kind of bacterial infection. Any thoughts?

This morning she is still alive but still doing barrel rolls. I always wash my hands with plain water and make sure I don't have chemicals or lotions on my hands before I do a water change or anything involved with touching the water. Last month I read on here that spraying stuff near a fish tank is really bad for your fish so I made sure no family members are spraying anything in my room for the last month. I will do a 75% water change today and go to petco to get my water tested.

 

[corylover5]

I've done a 75% water change and so far no other fish have any symptoms of any illness. My molly is looking a little better. She isn't swimming in loops anymore although she still seems weak. @AdoraBelle Dearheart I think your right about it not being Whirling disease.

 

[corylover5]

I just remembered a while ago with my dalmatian molly she had been swimming around my tank and she swam at top speed across my tank one time and poked her eye into a piece of driftwood. Later that night her eye was extremely swollen and fluid filled. I moved her to an Epsom salt bath and then to a bucket with aquarium salt for 1 week with Epsom salt baths every other day. After 1 week her eye had healed and a placed her back in my tank. That happened a little over a month ago. Could there be an underlying infection from that having happened?

 

[Byron]

As I have so frequently posted, diagnosing disease is very difficult unless one is a trained biologist or microbiologist and can perform a necropsy on the dead fish. Some diseases are pretty obvious...ich, velvet, etc,...but other symptoms can apply to more than one problem. Fish unable to swim in normal balance, showing signs like whirling, upending, vertical sinking and such can have some internal physiological issue that may be genetic, or it may be due to internal protozoan. Don't assume it is "whirling disease."

I have never seen a fish recover from any imbalance issue. But I also never treat them for it, unless it is clearly contagious and in that respect will almost certainly be due to an internal protozoan which can (sometimes) be treated with metronidazole (an antibiotic), which is unavailable in some places as we have recently been discussing in other threads. But again, in one fish I would not jump to this conclusion. I euthanize such fish. This is much safer than risking the others in the tank. Once you start medicating for "x" you are causing additional stress to all the fish, and if the treatment is not safe and what is actually needed, you just make things worse for the fish, including the healthy ones.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

As I have so frequently posted, diagnosing disease is very difficult unless one is a trained biologist or microbiologist and can perform a necropsy on the dead fish. Some diseases are pretty obvious...ich, velvet, etc,...but other symptoms can apply to more than one problem. Fish unable to swim in normal balance, showing signs like whirling, upending, vertical sinking and such can have some internal physiological issue that may be genetic, or it may be due to internal protozoan. Don't assume it is "whirling disease."

I have never seen a fish recover from any imbalance issue. But I also never treat them for it, unless it is clearly contagious and in that respect will almost certainly be due to an internal protozoan which can (sometimes) be treated with metronidazole (an antibiotic), which is unavailable in some places as we have recently been discussing in other threads. But again, in one fish I would not jump to this conclusion. I euthanize such fish. This is much safer than risking the others in the tank. Once you start medicating for "x" you are causing additional stress to all the fish, and if the treatment is not safe and what is actually needed, you just make things worse for the fish, including the healthy ones.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I think @corylover5 real fear is that the first fish died after a week or so, and now this is the second fish showing the same symptoms, so she's concerned about some bacteria or infection spreading through the whole tank. Would you remove any showing signs and euthanise?

I have seen a molly recover well from a bad swim bladder problem, and a guppy show some minor swim bladder issues when she was heavily gravid then returned to normal once she dropped the fry, so I'm more optimistic about "normal" swim bladder issues, depending on the cause of course. But this erratic twirling doesn't sound like the buoyancy problems of "normal" swim bladder problems.

Any thoughts on whether whirling disease is confined to salmonids? Just out of academic curiosity. The only sources I've seen that say it can be a problem in the home aquarium are anecdotal or blog type posts, the scientific papers I looked at only mentioned salmonids, so I'm thinking people might have assumed all fish can get it, while it's likely confined to one family of fish and is a problem for farmed fish and the wild populations of salmonids, not something for us hobbyists to worry about.

 

[Byron]

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I think @corylover5 real fear is that the first fish died after a week or so, and now this is the second fish showing the same symptoms, so she's concerned about some bacteria or infection spreading through the whole tank. Would you remove any showing signs and euthanise?

I have seen a molly recover well from a bad swim bladder problem, and a guppy show some minor swim bladder issues when she was heavily gravid then returned to normal once she dropped the fry, so I'm more optimistic about "normal" swim bladder issues, depending on the cause of course. But this erratic twirling doesn't sound like the buoyancy problems of "normal" swim bladder problems.

Any thoughts on whether whirling disease is confined to salmonids? Just out of academic curiosity. The only sources I've seen that say it can be a problem in the home aquarium are anecdotal or blog type posts, the scientific papers I looked at only mentioned salmonids, so I'm thinking people might have assumed all fish can get it, while it's likely confined to one family of fish and is a problem for farmed fish and the wild populations of salmonids, not something for us hobbyists to worry about.

My previous post was based upon what I learned from a marine biologist several years ago when I had a problem with fish dying daily due to what turned out to be an internal protozoan introduced with new fish. This erratic swimming was one symptom. I have absolutely no experience or knowledge of "whirling disease" as such. As I said, I have never seen a fish recover, and they may linger for days or not. I euthanize because I get no comfort watching a fish in obvious difficulty that is not able to cope with life.

 

[corylover5]

Should I get clove oil today and euthanize any fish who shows symptoms like my molly and guppy? I wouldn't want them to suffer

 

[Byron]

Should I get clove oil today and euthanize any fish who shows symptoms like my molly and guppy? I wouldn't want them to suffer

I would have to see the fish before I would decide whether or not to euthanize, and I won't advise you to do that, it has to be your call.

If you do, the most humane method that causes without question the minimal amount of pain and additional stress is to net the fish out onto a folded-over sheet of paper towel, then give it a solid thump on a hard surface. It kills the fish instantly with absolutely no pain, and if you have the towel thick enough you see nothing. The only equally painless method is to cut off the head, but this is not so easy to do with small fish wriggling around.

 

[corylover5]

I don't think I could bring myself to do either of those methods.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

This is the video I watched to learn how to use the clove oil method, and it did seem to be a peaceful way to go, fish didn't struggle, panic or gasp, just went to sleep then I overdosed the oil to make the heart stop. Obviously you'd need to adjust the dosage for a smaller quantity of water and smaller fish.


But I agree with Byron, it's your call as to whether you should euthanise or not. You're the one who can see the fish and only you can decide when and if it's time. I'm so sorry it isn't better news hon. You can always pm me if you need to talk or have a cry. Big hugs.

 

[corylover5]

Thank you. I will try my best to treat my molly with aquarium salt and clean water but if she gets to the point where she is suffering and not going to pull through I will get clove oil and use that method. I hope she makes it.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I'd recommend you get the clove oil as soon as you can, just to have it ready if you need it. As you saw with the guppy, sometimes fish seem to rally then can go downhill fast, and you don't want that to happen late at night and not have the clove oil when you need it. I hope she recovers and you don't need it, but if you do, you want to have it there and ready, and know what to do.

 

[Essjay]

Clove oil is an old toothache remedy which is why it's sold in drug stores and pharmacies.