Help! New Walstad, High Ammonia & Nitrates!

[sn0wlvlan]

A couple of other things. First, leaving the soil may mean no fish for up to six months. But, even then, there are fish that should not be kept in a tank with soil. Substrate fish for example. Corydoras catfish and loaches can have very serious bacterial issues with anything but inert sand, and these fish "dig" naturally which can make a real mess.

Given the issues, I would recommend you change the substrate now so you will not be hampered/hindered going forward from any of these serious problems. Soft sand is your best option. The other thing is, plants will grow equally well in inert sand as in soil, perhaps even better. And inert sand has no fish problems associated with it.

Thanks for the tips!
On this note, I am actually capping it with inert sand (do correct me if I'm wrong - Rio Montana Medium. It should be PH & Substrate Neutral. The only active one is the soil below)

 

[Byron]

Yea I've always seen references to organic potting soil / topsoil / garden soil.
Just not fertilized and no organic matter

It is the organic content that is the only benefit with soil. If it were not for the decomposition of the organic matter, there would not be CO2 produced, and the only--and I stress only--benefit to soil is the initial level of CO2 over the first few months. There is absolutely no benefit other than this to using "soil." Diana does agree with this. She writes in her book that after one year, a soil substrate has to be replaced because it is no more a benefit than inert sand at this point. Given the initial 6-month problems, this makes soil even less practical. And, you still cannot have substrate fish with soil regardless, because of the on-going bacteria issues.

 

[Byron]

Thanks for the tips!
On this note, I am actually capping it with inert sand (do correct me if I'm wrong - Rio Montana Medium. It should be PH & Substrate Neutral. The only active one is the soil below)

Doesn't matter. You cannot have substrate fish that are prone to dig with soil. As for the Rio Montana sand, I have no idea if this is safe or not when it comes to roughness, something that again impacts substrate fish.

 

[GaryE]

I agree with @Byron but for one thing. You want a Walstad tank and the advice steers you away from one. It's what I would consider a technical tank, calling for a degree of skill and knowledge, and some people get into that. I tip my hat to them.

I have always preferred difficult fish to difficult plants, so I haven't pursued the ideas beyond reading the Walstad book. I can see that kind of tank as great if you don't want Corys, loaches or Cichlids, and many great tanks can thrive without those fish groups.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

It is the organic content that is the only benefit with soil. If it were not for the decomposition of the organic matter, there would not be CO2 produced, and the only--and I stress only--benefit to soil is the initial level of CO2 over the first few months. There is absolutely no benefit other than this to using "soil." Diana does agree with this. She writes in her book that after one year, a soil substrate has to be replaced because it is no more a benefit than inert sand at this point. Given the initial 6-month problems, this makes soil even less practical. And, you still cannot have substrate fish with soil regardless, because of the on-going bacteria issues.

Thanks for this, I think many new walstad starters who just dive in (not proud) should be aware.

 

[seangee]

I'm also with @Byron on this. Soil is just organic matter (or fertiliser), and who knows what else. Yes it may well kick start rapid growth - although aquatic plants don't need this. At some point the nutrients will become exhausted and you are simply left with a pile of dirt in the bottom of your tank

 

[sn0wlvlan]

Doesn't matter. You cannot have substrate fish that are prone to dig with soil. As for the Rio Montana sand, I have no idea if this is safe or not when it comes to roughness, something that again impacts substrate fish.

Got it, no substrate fish - but what about shrimps?Feels like I should just change my whole substrate.. I thought of walstad to be the ultra low tech no filter needed only light setup.

"plants will grow equally well in inert sand as in soil, perhaps even better."
Is this actually true? Or is it only true with conditioners added. I thought sand, if fine sand especially will be to compact for the rooting system. I have a fine sand only tank and always thought the issue was I started this very first tank full sand only substrate, without any aquasoil (not dirt) below, being nutrient deficient. Dosing helps but still not entirely.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

I'm also with @Byron on this. Soil is just organic matter (or fertiliser), and who knows what else. Yes it may well kick start rapid growth - although aquatic plants don't need this. At some point the nutrients will become exhausted and you are simply left with a pile of dirt in the bottom of your tank

True but isn't this the case with any substrate actually? Eventually ideally replacements, dosing, or tabs will be needed.

 

[Byron]

About 12 years back, on another forum, I was being encouraged to set up a soil tank. In my early days over 20 years ago, I learned the hard way that you cannot start messing with experiments when you have fish in an aquarium. There are natural "laws" governing biology and chemistry that play out according to the water parameters and the fish load and plant load. As with anything in the natural world, it is always best to work with nature and not against it. Having learned this, I have ever since been extremely thorough in my research before venturing into some "fad." And that is what these things are, fads. Back in the 1980's the fad was iron rich clay (laterite)--but this fad died out because it was found to not have the benefits but it did have detriments. Same happened for using kitty litter, and other nonsense.

So when I was being encouraged to set up a soil tank, I read Diana's book, several of her articles, joined her forum, and learned from other successful planted-tank aquarists. It became blatantly obvious that soil was a major problem. Add to this the fact that plants grow just as well using inert substrates. My fish have always been primary, with plants second. The risk was just not worth it.

I was however persuaded to try one of the so-called "plant-enriched" substrates. This turned out to be a total disaster, and a terrible waste of money. Within one week I had to remove my cories due to barbel degeneration, probably from the roughness (though in my hand I thought it was any thing but rough) but possibly also due to the bacterial issues that come with any of these substrates about which I knew nothing beforehand. I loved my cories and loaches, and I had no intention of causing them such harm. I removed them, but after two years I dumped the substrate in a hole in the back garden and replaced it with play sand. Plants grew just as well over the following 8-9 years, and the fish were certainly healthy.

An observation on Diana's method. She has a "bee in her bonnet" over soil substrates. But if you carefully read her book and articles, you begin to see the problems that significantly outweigh the minimal benefit. She has a remarkable insight into the scientific background. I refer to her book often. I just overlook paragraphs like this citation:
"The standard method--using plain, washed graqvel--almost guarantees failure with growing plants in the aquarium." [Walstad, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, p. 123]
I'm afraid this is completely false. Thousands of aquarists have beautiful planted tanks with inert sand or fine gravel substrates.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

About 12 years back, on another forum, I was being encouraged to set up a soil tank. In my early days over 20 years ago, I learned the hard way that you cannot start messing with experiments when you have fish in an aquarium. There are natural "laws" governing biology and chemistry that play out according to the water parameters and the fish load and plant load. As with anything in the natural world, it is always best to work with nature and not against it. Having learned this, I have ever since been extremely thorough in my research before venturing into some "fad." And that is what these things are, fads. Back in the 1980's the fad was iron rich clay (laterite)--but this fad died out because it was found to not have the benefits but it did have detriments. Same happened for using kitty litter, and other nonsense.

So when I was being encouraged to set up a soil tank, I read Diana's book, several of her articles, joined her forum, and learned from other successful planted-tank aquarists. It became blatantly obvious that soil was a major problem. Add to this the fact that plants grow just as well using inert substrates. My fish have always been primary, with plants second. The risk was just not worth it.

I was however persuaded to try one of the so-called "plant-enriched" substrates. This turned out to be a total disaster, and a terrible waste of money. Within one week I had to remove my cories due to barbel degeneration, probably from the roughness (though in my hand I thought it was any thing but rough) but possibly also due to the bacterial issues that come with any of these substrates about which I knew nothing beforehand. I loved my cories and loaches, and I had no intention of causing them such harm. I removed them, but after two years I dumped the substrate in a hole in the back garden and replaced it with play sand. Plants grew just as well over the following 8-9 years, and the fish were certainly healthy.

Appreciate the sharing. Fish first, plants second. Most old "fads" abt rich soils for plants prolly end in disasters (well maybe unless it's a plant grow out tank). Research deeply before diving in.

 

[Byron]

I intended to add a couple photos of my tanks to illustrate how well plants thrive with inert sand and use of substrate tab and/or comprehensive liquid. Was having issues with my photos previously, but seems resolved so here are the pics.

 

[sn0wlvlan]

I intended to add a couple photos of my tanks to illustrate how well plants thrive with inert sand and use of substrate tab and/or comprehensive liquid. Was having issues with my photos previously, but seems resolved so here are the pics.

They look great! Thanks for sharing

 

[sn0wlvlan]

Day 11 Update:

Alright, understood that the current observation was no-go already, but at the same time many sources saying to just wait it out, and so I did just to experiment and learn.

Day 11 (Some stems mostly ludwigia at the middle, java moss on driftwood & frogbit floaters added at day 6):

Expected melting and growth can be both observed (most of these pics were also taken when the lights are usually off, hence the closing appearance):

I've also noticed organisms (please advise if this is normal, I would like to believe it is as soil is used, with decomposition etc. & I've yet to introduce any fish/shrimps - not sure if these worms/organisms are the standard normal ones):

On my melting monte Carlo and numerous around:

On glass, tons of these, with quite a few bladder snails:

 

[sn0wlvlan]

BUT AS EXPECTED, HIGH AMMONIA, NITRATES ARE STILL PRESENT. Nitrites are normally 0 now.

Until Day 9, maintenance as usual 30-50% WC

Day 10 I thought of skipping a day and monitor. Then Day 11 below:

The highest amm spike yet. Frm observation, the after wc will inc back to 2ppm.

So bottomline is,

1. Should I just scrape this. As advised, reduced hardscape (use smaller if insist and to the bottom of tank, on glass to prevent more anaerobic soil, prolly change soil substrate, be more patient with 'poking' rinsing, etc.) - most likely doing this
2. Patience. Just continue and wait it out.
3. Enlighten and teach me with some other advice!

Thanks in advance for the kind opinions and guides

 

[DAnCSF]

The thing to remember about a Walstad tank set up, is that one is attempting to imitate nature, nature does not work according to human wants, ya just gotta wait it out. As far as tiny little critters they probably hitchhiked into your tank from all the stuff you put into it. Who knows how long it will take for your tank to become a "seasoned" self regulating ecosystem. If you want to put fish in, you could just add a few and constantly do water changes and tests until the ecosystem takes care of itself.