Have Urgent Saltwater Question

[T-Bone]

I'm having ich and probably other problems with my tank...I didn't notice a subtopic under saltwater for urgent posts. Need advice!

 

[Mr.September15]

I'm having ich and probably other problems with my tank...I didn't notice a subtopic under saltwater for urgent posts. Need advice!

When my clownfish had Ich I caught it at a very early stage so garlic helped. I just soaked there food in garlic to increase there appetite which I heard boosts its immune system and helps fight the Ich

 

[T-Bone]

A pre-"sorry", for this post is a long one.

For history, the tank I have was given to me by someone who neglected it terribly. My wife and I deep cleaned it with wet cloths, razor blades, etc (no soaps or chemicals). I reused the filters, but replaced the media. He had two pieces of live rock (that were basically dead when I got them) I rinsed them off and kept them - and actually they sprouted new small polyps.

*Tank size: I have a 75g salt
*pH: ?
*ammonia: test to be 0
*nitrite: test to be 0
*nitrate:nitrates tested readable, but in the "safe" zone according to the test
*kH: ?
*gH: ?
*Tank temp: about 84 degrees F

*Volume and Frequency of water changes: No complete water changes; just the addition of water due to evaporation.

*Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:I have a skimmer, two emperor 400's, 4 penguin 1130's with sponges for filtration (a total of about 2200 gph). I don't have real good lighting (it is coming in the next few weeks), just two flourescent tubes. The substrate is a natural black sand about 1 inch deep.

*Tank inhabitants: 6-line wrasse, 3 pyjama cardinals, 2 green chromis, 1 dragon goby and 1 yellow tang) and few pieces of live rock. I have a few hermits and snails, and few inverts came on the rock (aiptasia, small polyps, a clam, few small stars and a couple things that I frankly don't know what they are).

*Recent additions to tank: newest additions were the green chromis about 2 weeks ago.

*Exposure to chemicals: none that I know of

*Fish Symptoms: My tang obviously started out with ich a week and half ago (I had him for probably 2 weeks) - white spots in the gills and face and started to spread a little. I gave it a fresh water bath and it seemed to go away right away and did not effect any other fish. Two days later it came on even stronger and I gave him another bath, which again seemed to really help. But, again, he is getting worse. He has all the ich symptoms but also has brown/gold spots around his eyes (I think they are spreading), not eating very much, his eyes look enlarged (but not like pop-eye, it's weird), he is mostly yellow, but not vibrant, he seems real jittery and his skin is lumpy (it's like something is under his skin pushing out) also blackish spot/small strings on his lower lip. My dragon goby is not eating much, has ich on fins and around mouth, has started hiding on the large conch to get away from the current, and looks thinner and weaker. None of the other tankmates show any major signs of stress, weakness, non-eating, etc.

In addition to the freshwater baths for the tang, I have raised the temp slightly to about 84. Because of cost and danger of copper I am treating the tank via hyposalinity. Over the course of a few days I now have the tank's specific gravity at 1.009. I removed the snails and hermits as I heard the hyposalinity is hard on them.

I have started including garlic - I soak it into the frozen food as is thaws. But I don't know how much to use.

I thought stress would be a major player here as well, but I am coming up with a blank as to what would cause the stress. I feed small helpings a few times a day...mixed flake and formula one frozen food. (I'm going to get some specific spirulina flake for the tang's diet.) I can find no guilty bully - day or night. Water checks out good for what I've tested (which has only been ammonia, nitrites, nitrates).

The tang is gently rearing himself toward the 6-line wrasse and the green chromis as if they were cleaner fish. The wrasse ignores him, but the chromis actually pick some of it off. Are they known for doing that? And should I get some sort of cleaner animal for the tank...a cleaner wrasse or shrimp, etc?

The goby hides for most of the day and then lays prostrate on the bottom of the tank when he isn't.

I just turned up the heat to 85/86 degrees F. Just noticed something...there is a very large worm that is floating in the bottom of the tank (kind of like a bristleworm, but almost white and much much bigger and rounder). There is also these things that look like slime balls floating around too. Water quality is still good though. ? .

The salinity has not be at 1.009 for but a day and the Tang has more strength and appetite, but is still in bad shape. Can you think of anything else I should be doing...or perhaps something else entirely? To make things worse, I am going out of town for a week and a half and must leave the tank in the care of my wife (she loves the hobby, but she is brand new to it).

Please offer anything.

Sorry, Tang is too jittery for a pic and Goby is hiding.

 

[Ranger]

A pre-"sorry", for this post is a long one.

No Problem, better long and detailed than short and no info I'm not one of the vets around here, and from the sound of it you may know more than I do . But I'll give whatever insight I can to help with your problem.

How long has your tank been running? Are the following test results recent?

*Tank size: I have a 75g salt
*pH: ?
*ammonia: test to be 0
*nitrite: test to be 0
*nitrate:nitrates tested readable, but in the "safe" zone according to the test
*kH: ?
*gH: ?
*Tank temp: about 84 degrees F

Get a pH test, its one of the more important ones and if its off could be the cause.

*Volume and Frequency of water changes: No complete water changes; just the addition of water due to evaporation.

You'll want to do a water change. Have you been adding salt water to your tank? If so your sg might be off. If possible use RO water(whether from your own unit or from LFS). Check tank water sg first.

*Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:I have a skimmer, two emperor 400's, 4 penguin 1130's with sponges for filtration (a total of about 2200 gph). I don't have real good lighting (it is coming in the next few weeks), just two flourescent tubes. The substrate is a natural black sand about 1 inch deep.

Again, how long has your tank been running? If filters aren't given enough time to adjust to bioload they won't work properly. I don't think your lighting is the cause of your problem, so we can mark that off

*Exposure to chemicals: none that I know of

Again, when you've been adding water do you use RO water or tap(w/ some kind of chemical water cleaner?)?

In addition to the freshwater baths for the tang, I have raised the temp slightly to about 84. Because of cost and danger of copper I am treating the tank via hyposalinity. Over the course of a few days I now have the tank's specific gravity at 1.009. I removed the snails and hermits as I heard the hyposalinity is hard on them.

Could you maybe try treating them individually with copper med? (Dunno which ones are harmful to what )

The tang is gently rearing himself toward the 6-line wrasse and the green chromis as if they were cleaner fish. The wrasse ignores him, but the chromis actually pick some of it off. Are they known for doing that? And should I get some sort of cleaner animal for the tank...a cleaner wrasse or shrimp, etc?

I would recommend that. I think a cleaner shrimp would be fine.

I just turned up the heat to 85/86 degrees F. Just noticed something...there is a very large worm that is floating in the bottom of the tank (kind of like a bristleworm, but almost white and much much bigger and rounder). There is also these things that look like slime balls floating around too. Water quality is still good though. ? .

Don't know what the worm is. the floating "slime balls" might be a kind of waterborne algae, I think I read a post on the forum a while ago on it. I think the OP got UV sterilizers for it either that or they covered their tank for a long time so the algae died off. Don't quote me on that tho, cuz im not an expert.

Again, I'm just offering what I've learned since I've come to these fine forums. I'm sure a more experienced person will post soon with much better advice . I hope I helped, but rest assured that your in good hands here! B)


EDIT: Forgot to quote it and I don't feel like diving back in to get it, but I noticed that you said you only have a "few pieces" of live rock. I believe you mentioned you did have 2 biofilters, but I would still recommend investing in some LR.

EDIT 2: Been thinking... How are you regulating your sg. You mentioned that it is currently at 1.009? I'm aware that it will help in killing the ich, but that sounds a little low and might be stressing ur fish, I'm just thinking out loud here though...(keep in mind im not a expert in SW).

 

[rhysiboy]

i think a uv sterilizer would be beneficial for your tank.

 

[andywg]

Great info on marine ich can be found here:

http/www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

When my clownfish had Ich I caught it at a very early stage so garlic helped. I just soaked there food in garlic to increase there appetite which I heard boosts its immune system and helps fight the Ich

From the second page of the above link:

My biggest problem with the use of garlic is the mythology that has developed regarding it. This all began quite simply and innocently. Kelly Jedlicki was studying the use of garlic as an intestinal dewormer. For those who don't know who Kelly is, she is affectionately referred to as the "Puffer Queen" as they are her favorite fishes and oftentimes are brought into the trade polluted with various worms. As I said, she was examining the effectiveness of garlic against nematodes and cestodes on impacted puffers when she noticed a general decrease in Cryptocaryon irritans incidence. Later on, she proposed feeding garlic to fish as a preventative for Cryptocaryon irritans. From there the legend of garlic has spread. Feeding garlic to fish is now an accepted cure for Marine Ich by some individuals. Furthermore, I have read of people merely hanging cloves of garlic in their tank in an effort to ward off the parasites, like some sort of bad vampire movie. And lastly, I have recently heard of a surprising number of hobbyists who soak their corals' food in garlic in an effort to combat possible pathogens when target feeding them. It goes to show that garlic has become an all-purpose wonder drug in some peoples' eyes based on little more than anecdotal observations.

I would be very wary of just using garlic as a treatment. If possible hyposalinity treatments seem the best way to treat the fish.

 

[SkiFletch]

i think a uv sterilizer would be beneficial for your tank.

AGREED. Tangs should not be kept in tanks without UV sterilizers IMO. Saying "my tang has ich" is just like saying the sky is blue... They are EXCEPTIONALLY prone to ich outbreaks due to even minor stresses. I'm most concerned about your salinity/sg. How have you been monitoring 1.009? Hydrometer? Reftactometer? And more imortantly has that meter been calibrated against either a known standard or a known working meter (like your LFS')?

Now, unfortunately, your whole tank has ich as a result of the Tang's infection and you're gonna really struggle to beat it. Hyposalinity will work, but its dangerous to do longterm. Do you have room to setup a quarantine tank (say a big rubbermaind plastic bin)?

 

[T-Bone]

i think a uv sterilizer would be beneficial for your tank.

AGREED. Tangs should not be kept in tanks without UV sterilizers IMO. Saying "my tang has ich" is just like saying the sky is blue... They are EXCEPTIONALLY prone to ich outbreaks due to even minor stresses. I'm most concerned about your salinity/sg. How have you been monitoring 1.009? Hydrometer? Reftactometer? And more imortantly has that meter been calibrated against either a known standard or a known working meter (like your LFS')?

Now, unfortunately, your whole tank has ich as a result of the Tang's infection and you're gonna really struggle to beat it. Hyposalinity will work, but its dangerous to do longterm. Do you have room to setup a quarantine tank (say a big rubbermaind plastic bin)?

Wow, thanks for the last 4 posts. This is now the wife. Due to money issues, we can't afford a UV sterilizer *next on the list to get though.* As far as I know, my husband has been using a hydrometer and I don't know if it's been calibrated against a standard. We do have a quarantine tank set up. Right now it has all of our crabs, snails, and 1 of our pieces of live rock. It's only a 10 gal and is set up with the bare essentials. Again, I really don't know much about all of this, but the 10 gal is too small for all of our fish right? Even if we did have a bigger one, would we take out just the fish and medicate them? What about the live rock and tank? Will they still harbor the ick? Would a total water change get rid of the ick? Sorry many questions .

I went to the local saltwater store today and bought a pH kit, then came back with a water sample. The nitrites still come out a 0 and small traces of nitrates *in safe zone* the pH tested approx. 7.9-8.0. I described the Tangs symptoms and drew a picture and the owner said it sounds like he has a secondary bacteria infection. He strongly recommended a seaweed clip for the Tang, so I got that too. It's been in the tank for 3 and a half hours now and the Tang has yet to touch it. Found the Goby dead when I came home and took him out. None of the other fish have been showing major sick signs *except the Tang*.

Again, when you've been adding water do you use RO water or tap(w/ some kind of chemical water cleaner?)?

Again, as far as I know, we've just been putting straight tap water in our tank. Is this bad? Should we be doing something else? My husband is more of an expert at freshwater, so I don't know if he knows how to do everything in SW yet.

 

[Ter]

get salt if u dont have any left.. do some math.. and bring up your salinity slowly.. your PH is 2 low... check your KH add kent marine buffer or other brand... do this slowly... but it NEEDS 2 be done or expect a lot more loss! when you do a water change use RO water.. and always re-add salt.... directions are on the bag... I think most are 1/2 cup per gallon...

edit: At this point RO water isnt a must you have more important issues... but do use a tap water conditioner...

 

[T-Bone]

get salt if u dont have any left.. do some math.. and bring up your salinity slowly.. your PH is 2 low... check your KH add kent marine buffer or other brand... do this slowly... but it NEEDS 2 be done or expect a lot more loss! when you do a water change dont use RO water.. and always re-add salt.... directions are on the bag... I think most are 1/2 cup per gallon...

At this point RO water isnt a must you have more important issues... but do use a tap water conditioner...

Ok. Thanks. I'll see if my husband can walk me through that over the phone.

 

[Ter]

when you do a water change use RO water.. you replyed before i could edit
but like i said.. at this point u have bigger fish 2 fry
Ter

 

[Ranger]

when you do a water change use RO water.. you replyed before i could edit
but like i said.. at this point u have bigger fish 2 fry
Ter

In case you didn't know, RO water can easily be obtained from your LFS. I would recommend that until you can buy your own unit. Good luck!

 

[SkiFletch]

Ok, actually with a sg of 1.009 and a pH of 7.9-8.0 you're doing just fine chemistry wise. You unfortunately cannot put the tang in a 10g tank for quarantine purposes as the tank is way too small. If I read this correctly, ONLY the tang is showing infection signs? The chromis, 6-line, and cardinals are not showing signs of ich? If that's the case, you have 2 options IMO.

Option 1: Diet, hyposalinity, garlic, and a prayer
Leave the tank at hyposalinity of 1.009 for a total of 9 days from whenever the treatment was started. Continue to feed all foods soaked in garlic extract, and continue to try small pieces of algae in the clip (I find stuff from a japanese or sushi store to be the best/cheapest). After 9 days slowly bring the salinity back up to 1.021 as weeks on hyposalinity of 1.009 can be detrimental the the fish's kidneys. Hopefully by this point the ich will have subsided and your tank will be healthy again.

Option 2: Copper, rubbermaid tubs, and a prayer
Take the equivalent of 2 fist-sized live rocks and place them in a rubbermaid tub with mixed saltwater, a small powerhead (~200gph), a small heater, and just light it with some standard old flourescents. Perhaps some of those twisty incandescent replacements on a 6-8 hour timer. Then, treat that tank with a copper based ich medication for 2-4 weeks to attempt to beat the ich. Meanwhile raise the sg in your display tank back up to 1.026. The rock you use in the quarantine tank will now become permanent quarantine rock. You CAN NOT put it back into your display tank if you ever hope to keep invertebrates and corals as it WILL transfer copper back to the display which can kill inverts/corals. Once the tang is treated, put him back in the display and pray.

Tangs and ich are really tough, and sometimes even a UV sterilizer can't stop them from succumbing to ich infections. A sterilizer can and will protect the rest of your tank from severe outbreaks if you do keep a tang.

Edit, I just realized, how big is the tang currently? If its a juvenile, you might be able to get away with housing it in a 10g currently for quarantine and treating purposes

 

[T-Bone]

Thanks, everyone for helping my wife whilst I am out of town. My poor wife is left at home trying to battle this on her own!! The best (quickest) way that I know how to tell her to raise the pH is to take out some of the tank's water and disolve some baking soda into that (in a seperate bowl of course) and then add it slowly into the tank. From what I have read, that should bring the pH to 8.2, which still isn't quite high enough, will be an improvement. I'm also going to send her on a trip to get a buffer for long term use...what kinds do you prefer?

I think she needs to keep the seaweed paper on the clip for the tang, but also feed veggie flakes since it is not touching the seaweed. Feed our regular garlic soaked formula one for the rest of the fish after the veggie flakes. Not feed more than what the fish can eat in 1.5-2 min, a few times a day to boost strength and immune system (of course never letting excess food accumulate in any ammount). The LFS she went to today said to cut down the feeding drastically - just once a day what they can eat in 15 seconds...doesn't seem right to me...what do ya'll think?

Beyond this, all I think we can do is wait and pray (thanks for the advice on the prayer, sometimes it's easy to be distracted). The tang is about 4 inches and I do believe that is far too big for the puny 10g iso tank we have set up...I mostly set that up for the inverts during hyposalinity. I have my eye on a used 55g for iso, but room is an issue in our apartment.

Thanks again for your help...it's great.

(By the way to fix some incorrect info from one of our earlier posts...I do typically change out about 7% of the water every 2 weeks. I pre-mix the salt into the new water the day before and use water conditioner/dechlorinator/detoxifier.)

 

[Opcn]

Kalkwasser will raise your pH.

I would have to disagree with the UV being a necessity for tang keeping, with the exception on powder blue/browns a cleaner shrimp will useually do the job. the powders have the finest scales imaginable, making them easy Ich targets, Don't buy powders is the best solution for that one.