Have they discovered where bacteria magically appear from yet?

[Bamf Comics]

Basically you have a sterile aquarium. You fill it with brand new everything and clean treated water. Add fish and about 30 days later you have a cycled tank that bacteria magically showed up from out of nowhere.

Have they solved the riddle in the last 30 years about how this bacteria arrives? It's pretty straight forward how one becomes 2, two becomes 4, etc but how does #1 get there? The only thing that's ever made sense to me was airborne water droplets the same way algae spores and such appear to make it in.

I'm having the worst cycling experience I can ever remember right now. 28 aquariums set up since May 22nd and not a single one completely cycled yet, most still have off the chart nitrite so high the color changes to the darkest color before you can even shake the tube. 4 aren't even testing nitrite levels yet. Live fish present since May 22nd. Fish seem to be doing fine. Extra large sponge filters on each tank, some have gravel, some don't, two even have HOB filters added. Even more annoying, I even bought a bottle of Dr Tim's miracle stuff (DrTim's Aquatics FRESHWATER One & Only 2oz) and even though I only added a capful to each tank until the bottle emptied, it still should have at least provided something. More HOB's arriving tomorrow for the larger tanks. I couldn't get Start Right which I've always used so I was thinking Hikari Cloram-X (P) Powder 5 lb may be causing the problem but I've had high nitrite for weeks now so obviously ammonia is making it thru to feed at least half the desired bacteria. I did have one plastic tub cycle out rapidly that I was using to preage sponge filters but that's not really transferred anything other than the ammonia consumers into the sponges in mass so far. I know nitrite can drop suddenly when it gets to that magic tipping point so I'm still hoping next Mondays tests have some tanks finished but I thought the same thing two weeks ago. I want more fish but I'm waiting on the magical teleporting bacteria to finally get here.

 

[BrianK]

You don't have a sterile aquarium. Bacteria is everywhere, you are just waiting for them to multiply to sufficient numbers. Every time you touch anything, feed fish, put plants and decor in, add subtrate and water, have air circulating, you are adding bacteria.

 

[GaryE]

if you look at life on this planet, the biggest success story is still the bacterial world. We're partly composed of them and they are everywhere. It's a matter of getting the right ones into a fishtank.

 

[Bamf Comics]

Exactly, the right ones. How do the right ones finally show up? It's obvious they aren't just sitting there waiting to reproduce or we could dose nothing but ammonia and nitrite and have tanks cycled in days or a couple weeks. The first thing to start showing nitrite here was the one thing I definitely didn't add Dr Tim's too, the plastic tub, it was also the first to have high nitrate readings. New tanks, chlorinated town water but the plastic tub wins the race by weeks although it was never used for aquatics prior. It was completely open to the air with no lid which may be a factor if we're thinking airborne droplets but even then the air pumps should have been pumping some into the tanks with lids.

 

[GaryE]

Plastic is a better medium for bacteria to lock onto.

Rather than passively hoping for luck, most of us use established media or plants, or buy starters and use them as suggested, in the quantities they suggest. I've never used them, btw. I use established tanks to start cultures. After I moved across a good chunk of country, I restarted dozens of tanks with little trouble.

You have the store, if I remember correctly. That must be an added pressure to get this kick started. Make a big plant order, and they'll come in covered in what you need. Just avoid the sterile, tissue culture ones...

 

[Bamf Comics]

Plants are not an option yet. The wholesaler with the fish doesn't have any available they said. I also asked for aged/old filter media a month+ back and couldn't get any either.

I used Dr Tim's original bacterial supplement back in 2002 and did a number of cycling experiments online for people to follow and it worked great. (Hagen's Cycle once again failed miserably) His original had to be refrigerated continually. This new one apparently ships for days in the mail unrefrigerated and did nothing but at $13+ a bottle I'm not buying that many bottles to dose all the new tanks full strength. I've got two more bottles in the fridge from the wholesaler I was stocking for customer use so when the $800 order of HOB filters finally arrives tomorrow I may dose the two 20 gallon angelfish tanks just to see if I can get them across the finish line faster, plus I'd like to have at least something to base selling the stuff on since I'm not a fan of snake oils like "Cycle".

I'd love to get ahold of some hornwort but the planted tanks are two more racks away from setting up. I've got 8 10 gallons waiting on filters to use for receiving new fish that I filled with water over a week ago but no lids yet. They're getting new HOB's instead of sponges since I should be able to just rinse the cartridges daily or so as needed to control things for a week or so to make sure fish are healthy before moving to the other tanks. I'm debating dropping their bio media inserts into the bottom of the cycled tub since I wouldn't actually need them until Wednesday after next at the earliest which is the soonest new fish can arrive. I've also toy'd witrh the idea of just hanging the 8 HOB's for those tanks directly on the tub for a week but I'm just not certain it's really needed for those. That'll be closer to 40 tanks running when they're going but I expect to only have fish in them between shipments., bare bottom, etc....

The next new tank rack will most likely be a triple decker with 3 20 High's on the top row and two rows of three 10 gallons underneath. Then a double decker of 60 breeders in the next spot which at least one will be plants and shrimp, if not both. Those should give me enough room to accommodate a larger plant order from s different supplier. Bottleneck for now is getting the first 20 some tanks across the finish line so I can start adding fish types that wouldn't appreciate high nitrite.

 

[Fishfunn]

Basically you have a sterile aquarium. You fill it with brand new everything and clean treated water. Add fish and about 30 days later you have a cycled tank that bacteria magically showed up from out of nowhere.

Have they solved the riddle in the last 30 years about how this bacteria arrives? It's pretty straight forward how one becomes 2, two becomes 4, etc but how does #1 get there? The only thing that's ever made sense to me was airborne water droplets the same way algae spores and such appear to make it in.

I'm having the worst cycling experience I can ever remember right now. 28 aquariums set up since May 22nd and not a single one completely cycled yet, most still have off the chart nitrite so high the color changes to the darkest color before you can even shake the tube. 4 aren't even testing nitrite levels yet. Live fish present since May 22nd. Fish seem to be doing fine. Extra large sponge filters on each tank, some have gravel, some don't, two even have HOB filters added. Even more annoying, I even bought a bottle of Dr Tim's miracle stuff (DrTim's Aquatics FRESHWATER One & Only 2oz) and even though I only added a capful to each tank until the bottle emptied, it still should have at least provided something. More HOB's arriving tomorrow for the larger tanks. I couldn't get Start Right which I've always used so I was thinking Hikari Cloram-X (P) Powder 5 lb may be causing the problem but I've had high nitrite for weeks now so obviously ammonia is making it thru to feed at least half the desired bacteria. I did have one plastic tub cycle out rapidly that I was using to preage sponge filters but that's not really transferred anything other than the ammonia consumers into the sponges in mass so far. I know nitrite can drop suddenly when it gets to that magic tipping point so I'm still hoping next Mondays tests have some tanks finished but I thought the same thing two weeks ago. I want more fish but I'm waiting on the magical teleporting bacteria to finally get here.

We agree that bacteria come from the air, human touch, surfaces, etc and bloom to consume as many nutrients as they can feed on. A better question is, where do the parasites come from? Suppose we sterilize our tanks; parasites must come from the fish and water we add.

 

[Colin_T]

We agree that bacteria come from the air, human touch, surfaces, etc and bloom to consume as many nutrients as they can feed on. A better question is, where do the parasites come from? Suppose we sterilize our tanks; parasites must come from the fish and water we add.

You got it, the disease organisms come from fish, shrimp, plants and water from pet shops.

 

[Colin_T]

Basically you have a sterile aquarium. You fill it with brand new everything and clean treated water. Add fish and about 30 days later you have a cycled tank that bacteria magically showed up from out of nowhere.

Have they solved the riddle in the last 30 years about how this bacteria arrives? It's pretty straight forward how one becomes 2, two becomes 4, etc but how does #1 get there? The only thing that's ever made sense to me was airborne water droplets the same way algae spores and such appear to make it in.

I'm having the worst cycling experience I can ever remember right now. 28 aquariums set up since May 22nd and not a single one completely cycled yet, most still have off the chart nitrite so high the color changes to the darkest color before you can even shake the tube. 4 aren't even testing nitrite levels yet. Live fish present since May 22nd. Fish seem to be doing fine. Extra large sponge filters on each tank, some have gravel, some don't, two even have HOB filters added.

We knew the answer to this back in the 80s. All sorts of bacteria are in the air and blows onto the water. Aquatic bacteria settle in the water and start growing.

A few things you can do to help speed up the cycling process.
Have the tank water at 28-30C. It speeds up the bacteria so they reproduce faster.
*NB* don't increase the temperature if you have coldwater fish in the tank.

Have lots of aeration to maximise the oxygen level in the water. The bacteria we want in the filter is aerobic and loves oxygen and dark spaces.

Don't have the light on unless you have live plants. The beneficial filter bacteria don't like light, which is why filters are normally dark tinted plastic.

Keep the pH around 7.0. If the pH drops too much (below 5.5-6.0), the bacteria can stop growing.

Keep the carbonate hardness (KH) around 100ppm or higher. The bacteria feed on the KH.

Have the top of the aquarium open to the air so bacteria can land on the water. If you have fish in the tank and they jump, drop the water level down a few inches or have the cover on.

Don't let the ammonia or nitrite go above 5ppm otherwise the cycling process can stall. You mention the nitrite goes real dark instantly and that would suggest there is too much nitrite in the water and the bacteria aren't going to convert it into anything. Do a 50% water change and see if the nitrite drops to 2-3ppm. You only want 3ppm of ammonia or nitrite during the cycling so the process doesn't stall. If it seems to stall, do a big (75-90%) water change to dilute anything in there and to get the pH and KH back to a more usable level.

If you have an established aquarium, take some of the filter media from that and put it in the new tank to provide some bacteria to speed things up.

Liquid filter bacteria supplements can be useful. I recommend using a double dose every day for a week, then pour the remaining contents into the aquarium. Try to add the bacteria near the filter intake so it gets drawn into the filter where it belongs.

 

[Bamf Comics]

Back in the 90's it felt like every 6 months or so, Dr Tim would have another article published identifying or explaining another development in the quest to identify who converts nitrite into nitrate in aquariums. I was hoping by now there something more on where #1 comes from. I'd always suspected maybe from the fish waste itself riding in with the fish but I've cycled tanks without fish before. His new product appears to contradict some of what he'd said in the past with the product that worked like refrigeration. This bottle basically has you add the product and then NOT vacuum for a month. I'm thinking a month is way too long to wait compared to the last product working in the one week time frame. If I wanted to wait a month, I shouldn't have needed anything. That's about how long it traditionally takes anyway. I added the capful directly over the sponge filters so whatever little particles were added, should have had a lot go directly into the sponges. I didn't vacuum for weeks although I did water changes. I finally gave up and started vacuuming trying to combat the het blooms leaving all the tanks cloudy and we're mostly past that now but I still haven't touched a sponge or filter cartridge. I partially seasoned enough sponges in the plastic tub including ones apparently I will not be needing that the newest tanks are about even in nitrite to the one's that have been running since May. I was hoping maybe adding the two HOB's would boost those two tanks to the finish line faster but I can't really say they made any difference in either how long it took the het blooms to clear or anything else. The shipment of HOB's was expected two weeks ago but is finally arriving today but I don't think they'll help with anything other than aesthetics. For the goldfish 20 highs I went with the double sided two filter cartridge options. Each has a bio insert which it seems everyone started adding ever since Penguin added their wheel to their original "Regent" types. (Original Penguin and Regent filters were basically the same filter with the Regent line sold thru Walmart without the bio-wheels which you could buy and add separately.) Early last week a grabbed several handfuls of gravel from the driveways and dropped in the bottom of the plastic tubs thinking I could transfer over a few large pieces to each of the new 10 gallon bare bottom holding tanks when the first shipment of fish arrives. This week it feels like it will not be needed for those tanks so now I'm thinking maybe adding them to the display tanks dragging the most. The only question is how long to wait. They've been in the tub for over a week now in direct contact with the bottom. If I ever get one of the tanks with gravel finished I should be able to jump everything else from it including the future display stands.

 

[Essjay]

I have done fishless cycles using nothing but ammonia. Yes it does take a few weeks for the few bacteria in my tap water to multiply to make sufficient numbers but the tanks still cycle.
Don't forget most water has chlorine or chloramine added to kill bacteria so we add dechlorinator to remove them, then the few bacteria which have not been killed are free to multiply.

 

[Bamf Comics]

"A few things you can do to help speed up the cycling process.
Have the tank water at 28-30C. It speeds up the bacteria so they reproduce faster.
*NB* don't increase the temperature if you have coldwater fish in the tank."
No heaters, all the tanks are room temp with the room temp at 77.


"Have lots of aeration to maximise the oxygen level in the water. The bacteria we want in the filter is aerobic and loves oxygen and dark spaces."
Every tank except the 8 new holding tanks have extra large oversized sponge filters with a dedicated line from those noisy 4 outlet air pumps.

"Don't have the light on unless you have live plants. The beneficial filter bacteria don't like light, which is why filters are normally dark tinted plastic."
That's what's limiting my just buy some plants off Amazon option. I run the lights for an hour or so in the morning at feeding time. An our or so at 6PM for dinner and then only when customers come in to view the tanks. Other than that they get indirect low lighting room the back doors window or the stores light coming from the other direction.

"Keep the pH around 7.0. If the pH drops too much (below 5.5-6.0), the bacteria can stop growing."
Tap comes out at about 7.0 and soft. I have not purchased a KH kit yet but I suspect it's about the same as it used to be 30 years ago. I see several new test kits I want to try out eventually once I get my customer self service station going. The old free water testing concept although the increase in sticker price on all these kits by AP over the last couple decades makes me think it should have a slight service charge.

"Have the top of the aquarium open to the air so bacteria can land on the water. If you have fish in the tank and they jump, drop the water level down a few inches or have the cover on."
Even platies jump. All the tanks have green house panel lids except the plastic tub.

"If you have an established aquarium, take some of the filter media from that and put it in the new tank to provide some bacteria to speed things up."
No, that's the biggest holdup. I went 12 years without keeping any tanks until may.

"Liquid filter bacteria supplements can be useful. I recommend using a double dose every day for a week, then pour the remaining contents into the aquarium. Try to add the bacteria near the filter intake so it gets drawn into the filter where it belongs."
New to this line of thinking. In the day, bacteria in a bottle was snake oil even advertising stuff like claiming to "Optimize the qty" of incorrect bacteria. Do nothing and a tank establishes itself anyway in about a month. Add "Cycle" by Hagen and it still takes about a month. Then Dr Tim had a product in 2002 that was expensive and had to be refrigerated that worked in about a week. I'm still not convinced there's any reason for more than a one dose at startup product. Once a tanks established, anything from that point shouldn't be a problem. You're pretty much never starting from scratch again short of some medication related nuking. That was one of the arguments for cleaning/not to clean. If you clean, you remove some of the bacteria, but the bacteria you're removing is essentially the bacteria attaching to the waste and detrius you don't want. So basically, the more often you clean, the more you encourage bacteria to develop on places that would be more permanent and long term.

 

[Bamf Comics]

"I have done fishless cycles using nothing but ammonia. Yes it does take a few weeks for the few bacteria in my tap water to multiply to make sufficient numbers but the tanks still cycle.
Don't forget most water has chlorine or chloramine added to kill bacteria so we add dechlorinator to remove them, then the few bacteria which have not been killed are free to multiply."
That's kind of a contradictory statement. If the chlorine in the tap water can kill the bacteria, then it shouldn't be arriving from that source. I posted a link to the new dechlorinator I'm using since I can't get Start Right by Jungle anymore. My chlorine levels have been so low, that just simple aeration of the water as it's added, is usually enough to get all the chlorine out of the water while refilling and I've done multiple tests over the years confirming it. That's why it stinks of chlorine, because it's now in the air and not in the water according to my test kits but I usually treat with something anyway. Start Right used to add a little salt "electrolytes" and a touch of meth blue along with something that attached to heavy metals turning them into basically more types of salt. This new to me product from Hikari claims to do something different directly to ammonia others don't and I've wondered if some of the delay has been from it's use directly.

 

[Essjay]

Chlorine/chloramine does not actually kill every bacteria, it just keeps their numbers very low. When there's no chlorine/chloramine, those very few are now able to multiply.

Of course those with well water don't have chlorine or chloramine; it would be interesting to know how long a fishless cycle using just ammonia would take for those members who have well water.

 

[Bamf Comics]

"Of course those with well water don't have chlorine or chloramine; it would be interesting to know how long a fishless cycle using just ammonia would take for those members who have well water."
I closed the store in 2001 to go to work full time for my parents as a well driller, licensed and all. Well water can be a variety of different sources and should be shock chlorinated once a year and anytime work on the system is done according to the health department. I'm in an area where at least half my old customer base was on well water. Bored wells and drilled wells are completely different animals to diagnose. Bored wells are the one's more likely to bring in almost anything since it's basically a shallow well dug down until it reaches a hard rock that it cannot penetrate thru so anything that falls on the ground, could be getting into the water supply which is why there's requirements for distance away from different structures and such for their placement. Drilled wells generally use a large hole set several feet into hard rick, then they go inside and drill a smaller hole down thru the rock looking for cracks which basically carry melted snow and rainwater from the mountains to the oceans slowly underground, sometimes taking hundreds of years to get there so what's going in your tank today, may last have seen the light in the 1800's potentially. There are variations like gravel screening slits in the casing to let surface water into drilled wells and there can be vertical cracks feeding the wells as well as one's from the mountains. Someone from your area should be able to give you a better idea what your particular area is known for commonly. Once you move away from municipal water, you're basically guessing what you're getting until you test it. Spring water is just water that's found a path to the surface other than thru a well. We've drilled wells where the water itself rises out the top with no pump needed. That's basically creating a spring unless you can add enough pipe to get the top higher than the flow point. If not you have to add a creek/stream to your layout. We've even drilled wells for companies selling "Spring" water.