Hamburg Matten Filter

[DrRob]

I'm still looking for a silent air pump tho as that is really a deal-breaker for me if anyone can recommend one I'd be grateful.

 
 
If you do find a near silent air pump then let me know, I still miss my old medcalf hy-flo. Energy eaters and hot, but the quietest I've used.

I guess I'm struggling to see why you'd use the HMF over a sponge filter like I linked to.  Other than for increased media volume, which seems excessive in most HMFs for the tank size.
 
Maybe I'm being stupid, but surely whatever you use you will need either a air pump, or powerhead, so this doesn't seem a reason to choose one over the other.
 
In terms of flow though, you could use a larger sponge filter with a less powerful air pump, and achieve a similar effect.  I guess to me the HMF just seems to take up an awful lot of space and isn't very aesthetically pleasing, its screams breeding facility type tank over decorative home aquarium.  But I appreciate you have your reasons for choosing one.

 
No, you're not being stupid. I didn't answer fully. There are also exposed surface area differences and flow pattern differences. There's nothing at all wrong with a sponge filter, but there are specific benefits to the HMF.
 
Very old link with some explanation here http/www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/

 

[Mamashack]

Will do Dr Rob - found a couple which say they are silent, but are they? There are a couple of videos on Youtube which do sound tests, but I need to investigate further.
 
shrimply - thanks for your comments. My primary search was for something that wouldn't continue to shred the tail of my betta. His tank currently has an Interpet PF mini which has been fine for ages but now his fins have grown and he had a tendency to loll against the inlet grill, his tail had suffered in the last week or 2, so I was looking for something with a less powerful flow than 220L/hr which is the stated flow for the Interpet.
My digression to the micro/shrimp tank was really a future consideration in case the shrimp breed as the power filter altho small is very powerful.

 

[Mamashack]

Oh didn't see your link til after I'd posted cos you did a crafty edit, Dr Rob! lol
Have skim-read the article as I'm short on time at the minute (work beckons!) but I will read it more thoroughly when I get back. Looks very infromative from what I've seen so far so thanks for that.

 

[shrimply]

shrimply - thanks for your comments. My primary search was for something that wouldn't continue to shred the tail of my betta. His tank currently has an Interpet PF mini which has been fine for ages but now his fins have grown and he had a tendency to loll against the inlet grill, his tail had suffered in the last week or 2, so I was looking for something with a less powerful flow than 220L/hr which is the stated flow for the Interpet.
My digression to the micro/shrimp tank was really a future consideration in case the shrimp breed as the power filter altho small is very powerful.

 
Yeah I understand that, but you could achieve reduced flow with a sponge filter.  I know this is digressing slightly, and as Rob has pointed out there are benefits to both.
 
But my question would be, what are you going to use to power the HMF, and why, if you used the same thing to run a sponge filter would the flow rate be different?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

mattenfilters do handle mechanical wastes. Read the quote I posted again. Then read here about riparian zones http/www.eoearth.org/view/article/155754/ and what they do.
 
Then have a read here http/poretfoam.com/resources/Insights%20into%20Biological%20filtration.rtf
 
There is a reason that it is stated that one should disturb a mattenfilter as infrequently as possible. if this was not safe, I do not think this fact would be ignored.
 
But like I said above, Dr. Tanner is a credentialed practicing microbiologist, a lifelong hobbyist and sole seller of Poret in the USA. I would pay close attention to what he writes regarding the use of mattenfilters as I cannot think of a single member on this site who is better informed or experienced regarding this type of filter. The use of the Poret is supported by its specific properties.- how long it lasts, how efficient its design and its failure to shrink with time which would allow water to flow around.
 
Just like Dr. Hovanec, Dr. Tanner will respond to questions from people about Poret and its uses.
 

But my question would be, what are you going to use to power the HMF, and why, if you used the same thing to run a sponge filter would the flow rate be different?

 
The flow rate would be different because of two factors: surface area of the sponge through which tank water is moved and thickness through which the water is moved. In plain English, the more media through which the water must pass, the more it will slow the overall flow rate from resistance. But it may be easier to see this by considering  other types of filters= say hang-ons and canisters. Which is greater, the flow though the filter with no media in it or the flow through the filter with media in it. Or think of it as how a pump works with head. The higher a pump has to lift the water, the more resistance and the slower the output will be even though the power of the pump remains the same.
 
The jet lifter returns water to the main area of the tank at a rate that is well below the capacity of the foam to allow water to flow trough to the rear compartment. Because the water can enter though all the area of the foam, it can move less water though a cubic inch of foam because it also has many such cubic inches. Another way to see this is that the jetlifter return flow is steady no matter how thick the mattenfilter foam is. However, the thicker the foam, the slower the inflow rate per cubic inch will become as there are more cubic inches. But as long as the foam permits a great rate of inflow than the jetlifter can return, the water levels should be constant on either side of the foam. Only as much total water comes into the back side as the lifter returns to the other side.
 
A lot of what makes a mattenfilter so effective is the slow rate of flow combined with the massive surface area it affords for bacterial colonization. This is referred to as dwell time. The longer the water passing through is in contact with the media, the better job it does.
 
Have a look at the Poret site at the designs for sumps, they are pretty simple and pretty neat designs.

 

[Mamashack]

 

shrimply - thanks for your comments. My primary search was for something that wouldn't continue to shred the tail of my betta. His tank currently has an Interpet PF mini which has been fine for ages but now his fins have grown and he had a tendency to loll against the inlet grill, his tail had suffered in the last week or 2, so I was looking for something with a less powerful flow than 220L/hr which is the stated flow for the Interpet.
My digression to the micro/shrimp tank was really a future consideration in case the shrimp breed as the power filter altho small is very powerful.

 
Yeah I understand that, but you could achieve reduced flow with a sponge filter.  I know this is digressing slightly, and as Rob has pointed out there are benefits to both.
 
But my question would be, what are you going to use to power the HMF, and why, if you used the same thing to run a sponge filter would the flow rate be different?
 

I am trying to find a different air pump that doesn't get too hot and is virtually silent unlike the one that came with the sponge filter in the micro tank. The power filter I am using in the betta tank is rated @ 220L/hr and has an inlet grill which allows the fins and tail to be dragged in and so the more powerful it is the more harm it is doing. 
Even the tiny replacement power filter in the micro tank is quite powerful @ 300L/hr and could vacuum up any future shrimp fry.
I also have to admit that apart from the safety aspect, slower filtration rate and relatively huge area for bacteria, another attractive feature of the matten filter is the long period in between maintenance other than the occasional removal of organic waste matter on the tank side of the filter using the water change siphon. Might not be the noblest of reasons but it's an attractive factor I've got to say.
I also think from a safety point of view that being able to do water changes from behind the matten filter wall is a plus point too.

Thanks TTA have read the articles from those links and found them very interesting!
If I did go ahead and set-up a matten filter in the betta tank, could I use the cycled sponge from the Interpet PF mini and put it behind the matten filter wall (along with the heater and up-lifter)? Would it continue to function as effectively as it did in the power filter and gradually seed the matten filter wall? I don't want to have to start again or rehouse my betta if I can help it.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Well in theory that should work. The problem is in having the nitrifiers migrate to the mattenfilter foam. Most people do not really know how the bacteria moves about in a tank.
 
Basically, the bacteria prefers to be attached in its biofilm rather than motile. What research has shown is that the percent of the a colony which will be motile is inversely correlated to the available nitrogen. When times are good about 10% of the bacteria stays motile and the rest stationary. When N levels drop, more of it becomes motile which allows it to try to move to where conditions are better.
 
Once established, the size of the bacterial colonies in a tank will be fairly constant. But in terms if individuals it is not. Every day some number of bacteria will die and some number will reproduce. So while the individual bacterium change, the overall colony remains the same. It is the balance between these two things that determines if the overall amount of bacteria increase, decreases or remains fairly constant. It also explains how the concentrations of bacteria in a tank can change locations since they reproduce in response to more food than they need to do well.
 
These facts explain why the highest concentrations of bacteria in a tank will be where the best flow is (as long as it doesn't blow away the biofilm). Most often this is in our filter media, but not always. Poor cleaning habits can make the media less hospitable, too little media means the bacteria needs more homes etc.
 
What all of this means for us when we seed any tank is figuring out what we should do to get the bacteria to end up where we want it? If we put it in a place where circulation is good, it is not going to "move" readily unless there is a reason. If we want more bacteria as the prime goal, then placing media in a new filter will work as more bacteria means more places are needed for it to colonize and that should be the adjacent media This should be better in terms of flow and thus a better home. Over time more bacteria will be in the new media rather than the old.
 
In your case, you do not need more bacteria, you need it to move. So my best guess is behind the foam would be putting in a place very hospitable as it will have the cleanest water. I think this would make it harder to get the bacteria established and "moved" in the new foam. What I would suggest is the following. Once you get it all set up and running, but before you plop the fish back in, squeeze the sponge out in the tank side of the system. You want you see mulm etc. come out into the water and then get sucked into the new foam. Then put the old sponge on the far side of the tank from the new foam. You want it to be where it gets the worst circulation. Hopefully this will cause the bacteria to begin to die out on the old sponge even as it multiplies on the new foam.
 
But the last thing I have to offer here you will not like. There is no such thing as a quiet air pump. They all hum. Over the years I have had between 1 and 9 tanks in my bedroom. The one thing none has nor ever will have is an air pump. They are all noisy. The best you can do is to baffle it somehow. Get one stronger than needed with a long airline and put it in a drawer or closet, cover it with a towel. Oh yes, even the quietest ones do not stay that way, over time they will get louder.

 

[Mamashack]

Thanks TTA that makes sense to me. I'm still waiting to hear about the shipping costs.
Wouldn't it be nice if you could just buy a little perspex corner unit to simply pop in the corner of the tank, fit the foam and the uplifter and heater behind the foam then attach whatever power source you're using and off you go?!? Plug and play mattenfilter! Does such a thing exist or are they all DIY projects? It would make my situation a bit easier if they did exist! lol
In the meantime I've had to put the stocking back over the PF mini filter as I am having to hold the blue shrimp in the betta tank until the micro tank is fully cycled. (6th dose of Kleenoff  went in this morning as it's clearing ammonia within 24hrs but the nitrites are taking 48 hrs to get to 0)

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Nitries always take longer to come down, they reproduce slowly.
 
But of course what you want exists. You may have too trim the support braces to the exact size of your tank (if you measured wrong) and silicone them to the glass, but you get to specify their size when you order the corner kit.
 
http/www.swisstropicals.com/filtration-shop/cornerfilter-shop/

 
Ordering
Measure the inside height from the glass bottom to the underside of the plastic frame.
Email me the tank size and these height measurements and I will quote you a custom Cornerfilter for your tank with Jetlifter™, Poret® foam, glass braces, and optionally a 9.8 oz tube of silicone ($4.00; fits standard caulk gun).

 

[Mamashack]

Thanks TTA have seen that on the Swiss Tropicals site. I was thinking more of a 90° ready made corner unit that just slots in - no draining or siliconing retaining braces into place, but I guess I'll just have to keep looking unless anyone else knows if such a thing exists.
I do know that nitrites take a bit longer, but it just seems like it's got to the stage where it's so close but not quite close enough! It'll get there in the end tho.

 

[nortonmad213]

something like this ? http/www.aquarium-mondlicht.de/hamburger-matten-filter/index.html

forgive the german i cant find an english version

 

[Mamashack]

Exactly what I had in mind, Tom!! And I managed to translate it with Google Translate.
Thanks for that - I'll have a good look later after work!

 

[nortonmad213]

no worries, i have been looking myself recently as i am going through the same troubles as you

 

[Mamashack]

I've tried to order one but Google translate doesn't work all the way through the website and I'm going round in circles. I've tried to email them to see if they have an English version available so we'll see if I get a response.
Have you decided what to do Tom? I'd like to get one without the pump and use the top half of my existing pump as the power. It moves 220L/hour .
Haven't quite fathomed out how to estimate what power is needed from the link that DrRob gave - have you seen it?

 

[nortonmad213]

my plan is to silicon two bits of trunking, (much the same as is used to run wires round a room) in one corner. this will allow the filter foam to bend but not move, i have an ehiem powerhead spare at the minute so i will use that for the pump, its this one http/www.marinedepot.com/Eheim_1212_Aquaball_Powerhead_Adjustable_Flow_Aquarium_Powerheads-Eheim-EH1212-FIPHAD-vi.html
says it has up to 650l an hour but can be adjusted.
im then going to run a pipe back over the top and possibly into a spray bar depending upon how much the surface is getting moved about. 
no the calculations are stumping me too. i'll let you know if i figure them out.