Guppies Dying/sick.

[cowgirluntamed]

Update on the guppies. So far no more listlessness or anything like that. Everybody is eating good, swimming good, pooping good as far as I know. However....their tails just seem to be getting thinner. I wasn't sure at first, I was trying not to look at them everyday so I could tail. But I want to say they are a bit worse. I did an API triple sulfa antibiotic treatment(one course), then added the carbon to get rid of that. There does not appear to be any fungus or anything like that on the tails. But they are thinning out and I'm wondering if the ends are a bit more ragged(could just be still from territorialness but not sure). Is there anything else I can do? Would Pimafix and/or Melafix help with this or just lots of water changes maybe?I want to put these guys in my 55 gallon whenever I got it up and running but I don't want to risk a disease or anything.
 
PS-the rest of their colors seem to be fine from what I can tell as well. It's just their poor tails.

 

[simonero]

Hey, I didn't read every reply comment but have some thoughts based on my year or two of inbreeding my guppies selectively for fun.
 
Your pH is a bit high.  I'd recommend getting that down a bit.  Could you post your kH?  kH will directly impact your pH levels.  So, if you have a very low kH, you will need to be very diligent about monitoring your pH to keep your fish healthy.  This will have a lot to do with the water in your county, too.  Last year I lived in a county with really clean, soft water that was TERRIBLE for maintaining a stable fish tank.  Thankfully, there are things that you can do to help that don't involve putting dangerous chemicals in your tank!
 
What do you feed them?  Improving the quality of the food couldn't hurt if you are worried about health & pigment.  A good addition to typical spirulina that they will love is frozen bloodworms.  You can buy a frozen block and feed them with it every couple days.  This does not apply to guppy fry - they are too tiny and need to eat crushed, powder-sized spirulina several times daily.
 
Also, I wouldn't be too worried about the in-breeding unless you notice them being born deformed or something.  An occasional deformity, like a crooked back, is bound to happen regardless so don't worry about it and if it lives prevent it from breeding if you can unless you want that trait passed on.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I'll get updated test results in the morning after I get off work. However I don't want to mess with my ph. It's stable where it's at and has been for a while. They are used to it and I'd rather not go through ups and downs with it. That would put more stress on them. My kh is high enough to keep the ph stable where it's at. But I will get updated results for you.

I don't intend on breeding them at all. I only have males. Their tails haven't ever looked this thin and I had lost 2 others before this where a third got sick and recovered. I'm just wondering if this is more a disease showing its signs or not. I don't know what else it would be.

They are eating seachem's nutri diet tropical flakes. All of my fish eat that really well. It's about the only one they eat consistently(I've tried many others including even an omega one brand with no luck.) Occasionally they get freeze dried blood worms, daphnia, tubifex, or brine shrimp. The last three are from hikari. I should probably at least feed them more of those. But the nutri diet has served well so far, it even has some garlic already added to it as well.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Here are my test results for the tank.

Ph-8.2
Ammonia-0.25(may be a bit higher than normal-though I have had this reading many times before, its the well water- as I usually keep two aquaclear sponges in it and right now there is only one so I could put the carbon in)
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-5
Kh-10
Gh-9
(Don't know how to get the other number. This is how many drops I put in until the color changes.

Hope this helps. I'm going to do a water change today and tomorrow and try to get as much muck out of the gravel. It's getting a little bad but don't know if that's causing anything or not.

 

[simonero]

Yea, it couldn't hurt to vary the food source a bit.  And I still suggest the bloodworms as a great alternative.  But, I think that's more of an optional "optimize health" tip than an "address your problem" tip.
 
The stability of the pH is definitely important, and I don't suggest doing anything drastic, but "used to it" isn't the same as "healthy for it".  Your kH levels aren't low, meaning the pH is probably well buffered/stable.  But, your ammonia is going to be more toxic to your fish at that higher pH level.  (Note: I can't comment at all on the nitrate, I know nothing about it)  So, if you don't very regularly change the water (happens to the best of us) it's worth looking for a long-term solution to the pH problem.
 
So the big question is why the high pH?  Is this because of the water quality in your region, or because something in your tank is causing the pH to be high?  To figure this out...  next time you get your water checked, get your tap water that you use for water changes checked as well.  BUT, and this is important, wait at least 24 hours or the reading will not be accurate.  Now, if your water has a pH and kH of, say 6.5 and 1, respectively, this might indicate that something in your tank is the culprit.  For example, if your gravel has coral or you heavily decorated with coral that could be the issue, and I'd suggest taking that out (gradually, monitoring changes).  The driftwood is good - helps lower the pH slightly.
 
As far as your filter...  Aquaclear is great and I can't imagine why you'd need 2 foams.  Just make sure that every once in a while (I do this about once a month) you squeeze it out to "clean" it in dirty water.  You want the foam, carbon, and biomax but only need one of each.  For an extra boost, you can get a small, cheap whisper filter and change out the filter every 1-3 months.  I've done/do this in both 10g and 20g because I have giant apples snails (HUGE bioload) and am guilty of infrequent water changes.
 
Other things to look into are plants that are specifically known for absorbing calcium and lowering the pH, and (if you don't already have this) a gravel vac to help you suck up waste during water changes.  I promise there are easy ways to address pH that don't require being an expert and won't cause a huge pH crash.  

  And you just might find that addressing this helps with the coloration/health of their tails!

 

[cowgirluntamed]

I'll deal with the filter topic first, which includes the ammonia and water questions along with it. I have tested my well water on multiple occasions. I do let it set for 24 hours prior to testing. I get the same basic readings as the tank, including the 0.25 ammonia reading. I don't need chemical filtration all the time. There isn't any reason for it except to take out medication. So I keep two sponges which makes room for more good bacteria which does help with my ammonia more. I think the only reason it isn't hovering between 0 and 0.25 is that I stirred stuff up by leaving the filter on while taking out a sponge to put in the carbon. This has been sitting on plastic plants and other decor. I will take care of it on my next water change. (Note-I actually plan on changing over to a sponge filter in this tank when I upgrade my 20 gallon tank with a new filter. I just don't like this filter that well.)

As well as for my decor, I have three different anubias plants, plastic plants, Malaysian driftwood, and regular gravel I got from the Walmart aquarium section. No coral or anything that is raising ph. It's my well water. It's on the hard side.

Another note, I had a huge piece of mopani driftwood in my 20 gallon before along with smaller pieces. Constantly released tannins even after being a year in the tank. It never touched the ph of my water one bit. I don't think anything will and I do need to do more water changes and get those regular. I don't want to shock my fish during changes.

I just wonder if this is a related disease. My fish have been fine for a year in this tank. I ended up with parasites from a new anubias i think and ended up losing one. Then now 2 have died from some mysterious thing and then this other one got sick so I started paying attention more and noticed their tails being thinner and see through looking. Their body color is fine. I wanted to add these to a 55 gallon when I got it going but I won't until I know for sure they aren't sick. The only changes I had made to the tank was doing a couple of 50% water changes so I could move the tank twice. That's never bothered them before.

Also, while the api ammonia test is more accurate than most, there are still discrepancies in it and another on here had told me as long as the fish are good, don't worry about the ammonia reading on that level. Especially since its constant.

Thank you for all the information you put but I want to know if this is something I just need to monitor or treat. Right now I'm thinking monitor for a week and then maybe try aquarium salt or go the pimafix or melafix route to see if it helps.I'm just at a loss here.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Update: I think the tails are a tiny bit worse. It's hard to tell. I'm going to do a one week treatment of melafix to see if that helps. Other than that they seem fine though. I did a 50% water change yesterday and took out the carbon so now I will do the melafix starting today. I'll update in a week or so again.

 

[vwdank]

Speaking of high Ph I have researched this a bit trying to get mine down from 7.3 to 6.5ish for breeding my EBR's. I have purchased Indian Almond Leaves(catappa leaves) off Amazon that is a natural way to reduce ph.
 
I have not started this since I am treating for Ich still, I am going to start adding leaves to the tank this weekend. I will let you know how that goes and how affective it is if any.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Thanks! Definitely let me know how it goes. I don't intend on breeding anything but for my big tank I want lots of tetras. I know they prefer soft water. I just don't know if anything would change my ph given my kh is 10. Keeps stuff stable though which is good. I had that huge piece of mopani driftwood in my 20 gallon that released tannins constantly and it never touched the ph. The only other thing I know of is peat. Peat moss? Whatever it is. Never tried it but I think it goes into the filter. Not sure. But then again I don't know if that would eventually "run out" of its properties or not and if it did I'd be dealing with major swings.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Well, the tail rot is worse. I have not added today's dose of Melafix as I don't think it's helping at all. One of my guppies tails is now splitting. I still don't see any signs of fungus at all. The only antibiotic I have on hand is Triple Sulfa which I had used to treat whatever it was that was killing them off. Should I do water changes to get the melafix out and do another round of the Triple Sulfa? Or should I try to get another medicine? Triple Sulfa says it treats tail rot but wouldn't that have killed it in the first place then when I used it? Also, on my driftwood I noticed a really THICK white poo from someone. I accidentally put way too many daphnia in yesterday....tapped a bit too hard. Could it just be a color change from the daphnia? They are about that color. Anyway, if anybody else has any ideas, please let me know! I will try to get updated test results in a little bit but I have to get some other stuff done first. Though I'm not really expecting the water to be different. I just want to get this tail rot stopped.
 
ps- I do have pimafix(though as I said I haven't seen signs of fungus) and I have aquarium salt. I thought about aquarium salt but if this is still a bacterial thing I wasn't sure it would do any good anyway. Thanks for any help you guys can give me. It's just the 4 guppies in the 10 gallon tank along with 2 nerite snails.

 

[Jeremy180]

Have you considered old tank syndrome?
http/www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2
I know your tank hasn't been running for all that long, but the articles I've read say that lax water changes and a lack of (fast growing) live plants can bring it on faster in freshwater aquariums.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Thanks for the article. It's a bit hard to understand though being as it's for saltwater for the most part. But I think I get the point though. I was actually thinking of taking the wood and plastic plants out next time for a water change to get the gravel cleaned really well. I can't reach most of it well the way it's set up. And I try not to crush my nerites since at times I don't know where they are! Lol. Anyway....I do know I need to step up on water changes. But will this really help get rid of the tail rot right now or is there anything else I could do for it?

 

[Jeremy180]

Well, there were several freshwater articles, but since they were either located at competing forums, or in one case at a website dedicated to selling aquarium supplies, they would have violated thie forum rules.
They should be easy enough to find, though, if you search "old tank syndrome" "freshwater" in google.
 
As to your problems with the tail rot...
Honestly beyond knowing that the majority of fish diseases are just opportunistically taking advantage of the weakened immune systems of otherwise stressed fish, I don't know much about fish diseases or what medications to recommend.
The only other advice I have to give is to first see if you can determine whether it's a bacterial or fungal cause for the finrot, as these will need different medications, and also to be extremely careful using antibacterial medictions, as some types can harm the bacteria in the filter.
Incidentally, activated carbon in some filters can pull medication out of the water, so that's another thing to keep in mind.
Oh, and also, use caution when dosing medications to any tank containing invertebrates, And do not add any medication containing copper to such tanks.
LOL, I guess I knew a bit more than I thought I did.

 

[cowgirluntamed]

Ok, I'll do a google search more..dunno why I didn't think of that...stressed...lol. I don't think it's fungus as I don't see any fuzzy or white looking patches. I am and will be careful about the meds and the snails. I had even asked API about the triple sulfa and they said it was fine and it was.
 
I don't normally run carbon in my filter either. I only use it to take out medications I put in(which I try not to do if I don't have to.)
 
The only thing I can think of that may have brought all of this on, including the 2 deaths and sickness of the 3rd that is still alive and doing well other than the tail rot...is I am on well water. I was redoing my flooring in the living room where I had the tank. I did basically a 50% water change each time I moved it, once out of the room and once back in. However...we did get a TON of rain during that period(flooding and such in places) so I don't know if maybe the rainwater went down into our well and changed the chemistry and maybe it was shock of some sort? That's the only thing I can really think of except the lack of the number of water changes I do.

 

[Jeremy180]

If you really suspect contamination/quality issues in your water supply, I'd suggest looking deeper into this, and maybe getting the water professionally tested too for you and your family's sake, forget the fish!