Getting back into the hobby

[Fish_Filter]

Hi all,

It's been a while since we have had tropical fish in the house, and we've decided to get some again. We are looking at getting a 65L tank (60Lx40Hx30D ish), and have used some forum posts on here for ideas on how many fish we can keep, but I made this thread to see if we are on the right track (it's been a while and I don't remember having so much information available back in the early 2000s)!
We also used the online calculator to see how many slender and full body fish we can have, which gave us 59cm and 36cm respectively. I made a list below, is this the right sort of number, or are they way off?

Betta x1
African dwarf frogs x2
Guppies x5
Cleaner shrimp x5 OR Clown Plec x2 OR Twig Catfish
Balloon Mollies x4
Neon Tetras x6
Angelfish x2 (smaller breed if possible)
African Butterfly Fish

We would also love to have a Dwarf Dragon Goby, Sailfin/Swordtails, and Black Widow fish, but it seemed like a lot!

We will be getting a wide range of plants to cover all areas of the tank, including some that float, as well as some log effect pieces with lots of nooks and crannies.

So are we on the right track? Are any of these fish incompatible?
We have been wondering about the Betta and African Butterfly fish being a problem to each other or the other fish, or potential targets for fin nibbling, but from what we've seen online it seems the pet stores greatly exaggerate this issue...


Thanks

 

[IHaveADogToo]

Yes you do have some incompatibilities in there. Here's incompatibilities that caught my eye:

Flat out Incompatible:
Betta and Angelfish
Male Betta and Guppies
Betta and African Butterfly Fish
Betta and Swordtails/Sailfins
Angelfish and African Butterfly Fish
Angelfish and Neon Tetras

Risky:
Male Betta and Neon Tetras

Also be careful with the Plecos. Many of them get quite large. The bristlenose pleco and the clown pleco are best suited for a betta community, as they stay smaller, but a larger pleco like the common pleco would be better suited for an angelfish community.

65 Liters is *not enough* for angelfish. Period. These fish may be small when you buy them, but they can grow up to 8 inches (20 centimeters) tall and 6 inches (15 centimeters) long. Angelfish can also be very aggressive, and such limited space is going to fuel their aggression. To keep Angelfish, you would need a tank 3 or 4 times larger than 65 liters. Angelfish will nip at and fight with any fish with long flowy fins, like a betta or african butterfly fish, and angelfish will likely see neon tetras as food.

Bettas can be territorial, but you can do a community tank with a single betta. If you get a female betta she will probably be more compatible with community fish. The Males are flat out incompatible with any fish larger than them, and any fish with long flowy fins. So no angelfish, no guppies, no swordtails, no butterfly fish. The females are picky too, but are a little more peaceful than the males. As male bettas have long flowy fins, themselves, that means keep them away from fin nippers. Tetras can be particularly fin nippy, especially with male bettas. Mileage may vary, but neon tetras might be a better mix with a female betta than a male. You might want to look into wild type bettas. They aren't as aggressive as betta splendins (the bettas you can buy at the pet store), and they can even be housed together. Look for Betta Imbellis.

I suggest you pick your feature fish first, and then build a community around what's compatible that fish. At 65 liters (rougly 15 gallons for you US readers out there), there's no way angelfish will work. Put some serious thought into what fish you want to be the "feature". If you want it to be a betta, that's fine, we can help you come up with tank mates. If you want it to be a cichlid, that's fine too, but has totally different requirements than a betta, compatibility aside.

If this were my tank, and I wanted a male betta as my centerpiece, I'd keep him with kuhli loaches, shrimp, and a shoaling fish like harlequin rasboras. Maybe a clown pleco too, depending on the bio load. Or african dwarf frogs *instead of* kuhli loaches (don't keep kuhlis and frogs together).

 

[Fish_Filter]

Thanks so much for the reply!

I am very surprised to read about the Angelfish incompatibility, as we had two of them before with tetras and harlequins, and never had any issues - the Angelfish lived the whole time we had the tank as well, 6yrs+ I think (we sold them with it), and they never took any of the smaller ones, so maybe we got lucky and had a nice pair! Regarding the size issue, don't fish only grow to the size the tank can support, or is that a myth the pet shop guy shouldn't have told me? I don't remember our old ones ever getting that large!

I thought the Betta would be the main issue, which is a shame as it is a beautiful animal and my favourite fish looking in the tank when I was growing up. We did get a them at different times, and only one was aggressive from what I remember (we took him back), but the filter was too powerful and they'd get trapped and keep needing rescuing, so we stopped buying them. Other than that one male, we never saw anything negative between them and the other fish (which included Guppies, Tetras, Angelfish, Swordtails and Sailfins at various points). I did think female Bettas would be more suitable though so that's good at least. I remember studying about Betta wildtypes at University and they were just as pretty, so the fact they are more placid means I'll definitely look into that - thank you!

Thanks for the info about the Plecos - honestly I didn't know much about them apart from that they clean up algae and are bottom feeders... the shops never give much more info!

I'll have a good think about which fish I want to be the feature. Angelfish and Bettas are very nostalgic to me, but I'm so fascinated by the Butterfly fish! Tough decisions...
I hope you understand where I was coming from with my list based on my past experience I mentioned above; they all seemed to get on fine when we had them before!

Again, thanks for taking the time to reply

 

[SorryEh]

If you really want a betta you could house one in a 5 gallon tank, you can probably set up a beautiful betta tank for under 100 euros (not familiar with prices in the UK, sorry)

 

[IHaveADogToo]

I definitely do understand. I know you're working off of your own past experience, here. And to be honest you might have just had some very docile angelfish. Although angelfish and bettas seems like a glaring incompatibility to me, it does come down to the individual personalities of the fish. That said, however, the tank itself is too small for angelfish.

Regarding the size issue, don't fish only grow to the size the tank can support, or is that a myth the pet shop guy shouldn't have told me? I don't remember our old ones ever getting that large!

Not to be presumptuous, but did they die young, too? There is *some* truth in saying fish only grow to the tank size, but it's very harmful to the fish, and causes a slew of health problems, and eventually death. Stunting a fish's growth is not natural, and when you stunt a fish's growth, all you stop from growing is their body. Their internal organs keep growing, and eventually outgrow the body. This can make the fish very sick, and will eventually kill the fish. Angelfish have a life span of 15+ years. If your angelfish died after just a few years, and never reached full size, then stunting their growth probably killed them. I'm very sorry to tell you that.

Pet stores do tell you a lot of garbage. "Fish only grow to the tank" "You have to buy an algae eater" "this fish doesn't need a filter" etc. There are sadly a lot of myths in the hobby and pet stores are one of the worst perpetuators of these myths. Never trust a pet store employee. It's a minimum wage job, and they put in minimum wage effort.

 

[Colin_T]

If you haven't bought the tank yet, have you thought of getting a bigger tank, or 2 tanks?

A bigger tank will allow you to keep more variety. A second tank will allow you to keep neons in one tank and guppies, mollies & swordtails in the other tank. These groups of fish require different water chemistry so having two tanks would allow you to keep livebearers in hard alkaline water, and neons in soft acid water.

Alternatively, three tanks on a double tier stand. eg: A 4ft double tier stand. One big 4ft display tank on top and two smaller 2ft tanks underneath it. Have the tanks 18inches wide and you have a lot of space for all the fish you want. You could have a Betta and small algae eating catfish in one small tank. The African butterfly fish and some catfish or dwarf frog in the other small tank. And angelfish and something else in the big tank.

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Fish generally grow to the tank they are in. However, it is preferable to give fish enough room so they can grow to fully size. In a small tank bigger species will be stunted to a degree, but they will continue growing for as long as they live.

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If you have small angelfish and grow them up with neons and other small fishes, they are usually fine and don't eat them, especially if they are all well fed. However, if you have big angelfish and add small fish, they usually eat them. Some angelfish are more aggressive than others and you might find one fish eats neons but the other doesn't. Wild caught fish are more likely to eat smaller fish compared to captive domesticated fish. Basically any big fish might eat a small fish, but the chances of this happening are reduced if they are grown up together from a young age.

 

[Fish_Filter]

If you really want a betta you could house one in a 5 gallon tank, you can probably set up a beautiful betta tank for under 100 euros (not familiar with prices in the UK, sorry)

Yes we might have to do that! Maybe not right away though

Not to be presumptuous, but did they die young, too? There is *some* truth in saying fish only grow to the tank size, but it's very harmful to the fish, and causes a slew of health problems, and eventually death. Stunting a fish's growth is not natural, and when you stunt a fish's growth, all you stop from growing is their body. Their internal organs keep growing, and eventually outgrow the body. This can make the fish very sick, and will eventually kill the fish. Angelfish have a life span of 15+ years. If your angelfish died after just a few years, and never reached full size, then stunting their growth probably killed them. I'm very sorry to tell you that.

No, sorry I should have been more clear! We had the Angelfish the whole time we had the tank, which was six years, and we sold them with the tank. So I actually have no idea how long they lived for, but they seemed okay the whole time we had them, and were always growing (though probably from what you have all been saying, this was stunted growth ).

If you haven't bought the tank yet, have you thought of getting a bigger tank, or 2 tanks?
A bigger tank will allow you to keep more variety. A second tank will allow you to keep neons in one tank and guppies, mollies & swordtails in the other tank. These groups of fish require different water chemistry so having two tanks would allow you to keep livebearers in hard alkaline water, and neons in soft acid water.
Alternatively, three tanks on a double tier stand. eg: A 4ft double tier stand. One big 4ft display tank on top and two smaller 2ft tanks underneath it. Have the tanks 18inches wide and you have a lot of space for all the fish you want. You could have a Betta and small algae eating catfish in one small tank. The African butterfly fish and some catfish or dwarf frog in the other small tank. And angelfish and something else in the big tank.

That would be my dream set up, but for some reason I worry about having tiered tanks. We also want to be able to really see all the fish, and with the space we have it's more likely one tank will be less visible than the other. We could probably only get another very small tank in addition to this one anyway. Thank you for those combinations though, they sound great for if we do somehow manage to get that many tanks

If you have small angelfish and grow them up with neons and other small fishes, they are usually fine and don't eat them, especially if they are all well fed. However, if you have big angelfish and add small fish, they usually eat them. Some angelfish are more aggressive than others and you might find one fish eats neons but the other doesn't. Wild caught fish are more likely to eat smaller fish compared to captive domesticated fish. Basically any big fish might eat a small fish, but the chances of this happening are reduced if they are grown up together from a young age.

Ah, I think this is why we never had any issues - we got the Angelfish very young (captive-bred) and they were introduced to the large community of small-medium fish right away. Thanks for the information!


We still need some time to think about what feature fish we would prefer, I will get back to you all when we have an answer!

 

[Colin_T]

Just get 2 big tanks. You know you want too. It's inevitable. Resistance is futile. Come to the dark side. You already have MTS (multiple tank syndrome). You're doomed, doomed I tells ya

 

[Fish_Filter]

Hi everyone,
In the meantime while deciding what feature fish we might want, we went ahead and bought a 70L tank and filled in with a good amount of plants, and started the fishless cycle. We did water tests every four days, while adding bacteria starter daily. There was an algae bloom, and we also noticed some snails which I have been removing, that must have come in on the plants. As everything had remained ideal for over a week (no ammonia/nitrites, pH7.5, low nitrate) and the plants had doubled in size and started rooting/sprouting in new areas, today we went and got ourselves six Cherry Shrimp and three Indonesian Rock Gobies. They have settled in well and have already started cleaning up the plants and gravel, and have been very active in general!

We will be adding some bog-wood, which is currently soaking, on the right side. Maybe a rock too if it doesn't look too crowded!

So we were wondering, should we now do water tests daily and still keep adding bacteria daily? We were also going to leave purchasing any more small community fish (tetras/guppies) for a couple of weeks, assuming everything stays stable, is that reasonable? This was what we had planned and was advised by multiple staff at different stores, but I thought I should ask just incase.

Thanks

 

[Colin_T]

Cycling the tank with shrimp and a pH of 7.5 could be an issue. Any ammonia produced is going to be very toxic due to the alkaline pH. Keep the feeding down to a very small amount once every couple of days and monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels daily. if you get an ammonia or nitrite reading, do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate. Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank

Filter Bacterial supplements should be added regularly when there is livestock in the tank. The bacteria require ammonia and nitrite to grow and if there are no fish in the tank producing these products, the bacteria won't grow. So yes, you will need to keep adding the bacteria supplements. As to adding it each day, they depends on the brand, some are added daily for the first week, others are added weekly for a month. I generally add a double dose each day for the first week then leave it.

 

[Fish_Filter]

Cycling the tank with shrimp and a pH of 7.5 could be an issue. Any ammonia produced is going to be very toxic due to the alkaline pH. Keep the feeding down to a very small amount once every couple of days and monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels daily. if you get an ammonia or nitrite reading, do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate. Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank

Filter Bacterial supplements should be added regularly when there is livestock in the tank. The bacteria require ammonia and nitrite to grow and if there are no fish in the tank producing these products, the bacteria won't grow. So yes, you will need to keep adding the bacteria supplements. As to adding it each day, they depends on the brand, some are added daily for the first week, others are added weekly for a month. I generally add a double dose each day for the first week then leave it.

Awesome, thanks. We have been following this advice for the past week and the water levels have remained ideal.
The fish and shrimp have been very healthy otherwise, but this morning we've noticed one of the Gobies is not swimming very much, and when it does it thrashes its front end around. It is still attempting to eat and can cling to the side of the tank, and has not lost its beautiful colours. I've done water tests and everything is still ideal, and the other critters are as active as ever. It is the smallest of the three fish so we're wondering if there is some territory/hierarchy fights going on when we're not around. We've seen a bit of this behaviour, but there was never any contact, let alone anything to result in injuries. Any ideas?

EDIT: Here's a video, it almost looks like it can't use its caudal fin? This little guy was very active all week so we're shocked this has happened!
https://i.imgur.com/Nwhk0QD.gifv

 

[Colin_T]

The fish is breathing heavily and has lighter patches which would indicate a water quality issue or possible bacterial infection. Check the ammonia and nitrite and if they are ok then do a big water change and see how the fish looks a few hours later. If it's still breathing heavily then move it into a spare tank and add some salt.

Add 1 heaped tablespoon of rock salt, sea salt or swimming pool salt per 20litres. If there is no improvement after 24 hours then add another heaped tablespoon of salt for each 20 litres of water. Keep the fish in there for a week or so and if it survives then move it back into the main tank.

Have an air stone bubbling away in the tank and only offer food once every couple of days. Change all the water in the tank about 4 hours after feeding and add more salt. If you use water from the main tank it will be easier for the goby.

If you don't have a spare tank you can add salt to the main tank at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. this level of salt will not affect any fish or plants. Keep the salt in the water for a week after the fish has recovered.

If you do a water change then add some more salt to the new water you add. eg: you replace 40 litres of water then add 2 more heaped tablespoons of salt for the new water.

 

[Fish_Filter]

The fish is breathing heavily and has lighter patches which would indicate a water quality issue or possible bacterial infection. Check the ammonia and nitrite and if they are ok then do a big water change and see how the fish looks a few hours later. If it's still breathing heavily then move it into a spare tank and add some salt.

Hi,
Thanks for the advice! We did a water change as you suggested, even though the tank ammonia and nitrite levels were zero, and also quarantined the goby in a net breeder. We left it there for a couple of days. It barely touched the food, but started swimming again. We let it back in last night and while not as lively as before or eating as much, it is not having any spasms whatsoever.
I did however spot that its caudal fin is damaged as I suspected. It is split pretty well straight through the middle, so the poor thing must have gotten in a scuffle and been in pain afterwards which caused the thrashing around. Fingers crossed the little guy continues to improve.

EDIT: Thought I should mention we also tested the Oxygen levels, and it was optimum. pH is still 7/7.5.