Getting Back Into Fishkeeping After A Disastrous First Attempt. Need S

[Maikash]

No, you already had the initial dose of ammonia in your tank when you added the product. As noted you should have added it all at once.
 
So you have gotten things off plan. You should not need to add any more ammonia until you see 0/0. You should have already seen an ammonia drop by now.
 
I never trust posts like the one you referenced. Most people seem to have a hard time reading and following the simple directions for some reason. Often they add the bacteria to a tank where the ammonia or nitrite is already too high or the pH it too low. They failed to read where it says not to do this.
 
Take out the nitrate sponge, you have 0 use or need for it. For multiple reasons the plants should be in the tank at the start of the cycle.
 
Finally, how did you get the Dr Tim's from the USA to you? Three weeks is a long time for it to be mishandled. If it was allowed to freeze or to get to about 40C or above, that kills the bacteria. There are places to get it in Europe that are closer http/www.nordicreefshop.eu/FreshWater/Dr-Tim-s.html?maxproduct=0

 
Just got home from work and saw your post.
 
Took out the nitrate sponge, squeezed it in the tank properly and replaced it with fine blue sponge.
 
Tested the water again and ammonia is still around 3ppm and 0 nitrite.
 
I bought Dr. Tim's one and only from Amazon.co.uk. Only realized after buying that it was being shipped from USA. The seller marked the item "dispatched" couple of days after i bought it which was a little over 3 weeks ago. The expiry date on the bottle was of December 2013 and i have no idea how long it had been in transit.
 
Yeh i guess i have already made mistakes.
 
Where do i go from here?
 
I certainly don't mind getting another bottle of Dr. Tim's bacteria. Thanks a million for the link. Its also cheaper in the link you provided.
 
I am determined to get the tank cycled before i do anything else because i know without a properly cycled tank everything else would be a waste of time, money and fish lives.
 
I know there are benefits for having plants in a cycling tank (Source was one of your post in a thread) as they help in stabilizing the water conditions but I understand very little about plants thats why i didnt put em there to begin with. I will not be putting any fish there either before the plants and wood is in and the water parameters are stable. Just trying to take one step at a time.
 
Should i get another bottle of Dr. Tim's now? 
 
Is my tank temp ok?
 
Man, i thought counting calories in the cutting phase while working out was tough

  

Hiya, I'm so sorry to hear about the first experience, your daughter sounds very kind

Glad to hear she's warming up to the idea of fish again, and hopefully all goes well this time for ya'll. It's great that you're doing the research

Honey gourami are quite small but do not get DG disease, I think. So perhaps that could be your centerpiece?

 
Hey Ninjouzata
 
Yeh she's a sweet kid, thanks a ton She's still abit reluctant and i thought being a kid she would have forgotten about it by now but no she remembers it like it was yesterday. I'm trying to give her as much information as i can about different fish and every other aspect of fishkeeping and she is very keen on listening to all the details I will definitely look into Honey Gouramis, Thank you.  

 

[daizeUK]

Out of interest, what brand of ammonia did you add to the tank and how did you calculate the dosage?
 
I had a noticeable drop in ammonia within 2 days of adding Dr Tim's to my tank (I bought from a UK supplier which has sadly gone out of business).  A good tip is to take a digital photo of your test results against the test card, under the same light as far as possible, then you have a visual reference to compare the next results with.  I found it much easier to spot changes in colours this way.
 
Your temperature is fine, I cycled mine at 28°C.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Have just finished reading your post. Sounds like you and your daughter has had a hard time with your first tank. 

 
Such a shame that your LFS gave you such bad advice.
Best thing you can do is learn form this experience and you have already have learned a few things, first off, don't trust everything your LFS advises you, second thing, do your research, and thirdly, ask for advice on this forum, people here are pretty knowledgable are always glad to help out with advice when they can.
 
Sounds like you have been researching extremely well and taking these on board, even your list of stocking is not too bad for a first timer really.
Very well done, keep it up.
 
By the way you asked about keeping shrimps, yes I would say shrimps are a good idea, they can be a sort of clean up crew for algae!

 
But do not depend on them too much to clean all your tank and algae though.
And they do not add a lot to the bio load of your tank.
Red Cherry Shrimps (RCS) are my recommendation.
I have some and I am a newbie too and these are great characters to watch and very easy to care for as long as you have steady water parameters. 
They may breed though and I would say getting a dozen or so would be a good start.
Am sure your daughter will love these! 

 
I noticed you are from the UK, and would say Maidenhead Aquatics (just google search for them, there will be one near you) are a pretty decent place to get some RCS from as well as your fish stock to get started with if you don't already have a good LFS nearby that you trust.
 
By the way, be sure to post some pics of your tank and set up as you go along, people here love seeing these pics 

 
And 

to TFF

 

[Emeraldjones]

Hi Maikash

Welcome! I'm new here too and so glad I found this site before I went to the LFS, they still give the same terrible advice out . Thanks to TFF I now have a cycled, non toxic tank with happy guppies, shrimp, snails and plants and also importantly my kid is happy (they were a birthday present for him). He likes to help out with the water testing too.

I had a look on the tropica website to research plants as they have them grouped into easy, medium and advanced categories and then picked up whatever I could find from the easy category.

Good luck with it all, you're in the right place anyway! Looking forward to seeing the results.

 

[Maikash]

Out of interest, what brand of ammonia did you add to the tank and how did you calculate the dosage?
 
I had a noticeable drop in ammonia within 2 days of adding Dr Tim's to my tank (I bought from a UK supplier which has sadly gone out of business).  A good tip is to take a digital photo of your test results against the test card, under the same light as far as possible, then you have a visual reference to compare the next results with.  I found it much easier to spot changes in colours this way.
 
Your temperature is fine, I cycled mine at 28°C.

 
 
Hello Daize, I used kleenoff household ammonia after reading on here that its ok to use. I calculated the dosage using ammonia calculator from the cycling sticky thread by TTA. Just added little under 3ml to get 3ppm.
 
I hold the test tubes against a white towel or cloth. Works good

Have just finished reading your post. Sounds like you and your daughter has had a hard time with your first tank. 

 
Such a shame that your LFS gave you such bad advice.
Best thing you can do is learn form this experience and you have already have learned a few things, first off, don't trust everything your LFS advises you, second thing, do your research, and thirdly, ask for advice on this forum, people here are pretty knowledgable are always glad to help out with advice when they can.
 
Sounds like you have been researching extremely well and taking these on board, even your list of stocking is not too bad for a first timer really.
Very well done, keep it up.
 
By the way you asked about keeping shrimps, yes I would say shrimps are a good idea, they can be a sort of clean up crew for algae!

But do not depend on them too much to clean all your tank and algae though.
And they do not add a lot to the bio load of your tank.
Red Cherry Shrimps (RCS) are my recommendation.
I have some and I am a newbie too and these are great characters to watch and very easy to care for as long as you have steady water parameters. 
They may breed though and I would say getting a dozen or so would be a good start.
Am sure your daughter will love these! 

 
I noticed you are from the UK, and would say Maidenhead Aquatics (just google search for them, there will be one near you) are a pretty decent place to get some RCS from as well as your fish stock to get started with if you don't already have a good LFS nearby that you trust.
 
By the way, be sure to post some pics of your tank and set up as you go along, people here love seeing these pics 

 
And 

to TFF

 
Thank you Ch4rlie  

 
Yeh after a lot of reading and googling i now know that LFS cannot be trusted. I was under the impression that i was getting advise from professionals who care about fish!
 
Yes there are a couple of Maidenhead Aquatics around here. I have been to the been which is a lot closer to me than the other one when i was hunting for a good piece of driftwood.They were quite small though, only had about 10-15 tanks of stock. I will surely go check out the the other one.
 
RCS seems to be the most popular among fish keepers. I will get some

 . Cheers.
 
Will post some pics for sure. ATM though im worried about cycling the tank

Hi Maikash

Welcome! I'm new here too and so glad I found this site before I went to the LFS, they still give the same terrible advice out

. Thanks to TFF I now have a cycled, non toxic tank with happy guppies, shrimp, snails and plants and also importantly my kid is happy (they were a birthday present for him). He likes to help out with the water testing too.

I had a look on the tropica website to research plants as they have them grouped into easy, medium and advanced categories and then picked up whatever I could find from the easy category.

Good luck with it all, you're in the right place anyway! Looking forward to seeing the results.
 
 
 

 
Hi Emerald,
 
Thanks. Yeh i wish i had come here sooner like yourself. But atleast im on the right path this time around 

 
Thank you for pointing out Tropica. They do have very useful information and categories make it even easier.
 
All the plants in my list are easy. Im only a little concerned about Dwarf Hairgrass as some say they are easy to grow under decent light and without co2 kits but some swear that its a medium to hard plant and wont grow at all without a proper co2 stuff. I am still gonna give it a go.
 
Thanks for the warm welcome.
 
Cheers.

 

[Maikash]

I'm not really tempted to start from scratch.
 
Going to order Dr tim's Ammonium chloride and One & Only from the link TwoTankAmin provided.
 
Also thinking about getting a new API freshwater kit. I couldn't find the expiry date on the kit which looks a bit dodgy 

 
Is ordering 2oz of both Ammonium chloride and one & only enough or shall i get 4oz?
 
I might as well order the plants and start the new cycle with plants in the tank.

 

[daizeUK]

I wouldn't panic just yet - unless you're mad keen to spend loads of money  that stuff is quite expensive and you'll be waiting a while for it to ship from Europe anyway, during which time your current cycle might kick off.  Personally I'd be patient and wait a few days first to see if the ammonia starts to go down.
 
You haven't done anything wrong as far as I can tell, the Kleenoff you used should be fine, loads of other people have used it successfully.  Personally I used Dr Tim's ammonium chloride but I also had problems with the API kit reading the correct level of ammonium with that product which is why I asked which brand you used.
 
You've added the whole bottle of Dr Tim's now so those bacteria should be at work if they are alive.  It makes me angry that the suppliers hold so little liability for these bottles if they don't work.  They just tell you that you 'didn't follow the instructions' but they take no responsibility for keeping the bottle at the correct temperature during shipping or storage which seems so wrong
 
The API kits also cost a bomb and I wouldn't buy a second one unless you've got very good reason to suspect it is faulty!
 
It's your money of course but I have always believed that fishless cycling is a test of patience and it's all about giving the bacteria a chance to do their work!  It's true that I would expect to see some drop in ammonia by now after adding One & Only but please don't panic!  There may yet be some bacteria left alive.
 
If you're already set on purchasing more bacteria then the 2oz bottle should be fine for your size tank.  If you get Dr Tim's ammonium chloride as well then my advice is to just follow the instructions on the bottle and don't believe everything the API kit tells you!
 
Don't worry too much about the plants either, I had no plants for my fishless cycle and built them up slowly afterwards once I'd figured out how I wanted the tank to look.  TwoTankAmin is quite right that it makes sense to add them first because they will help to consume ammonia but IMO it only matters if you're planning to plant really heavily from the outset.  That means it's great advice for an experienced planter but for a first-timer it creates an extra pressure to research the plants and get all the planting sorted when you might actually find that some of the plants you choose will die no matter how well you research them e.g. I couldn't get vallis to survive even though it's supposed to love hard water!  Learning which plants will work can be a case of trial and error so for your first attempt it's not crucial to try to get everything perfect! 

 

[Maikash]

i "am" a serial online shopper Daize lol
 
I tested the water again just now and then read your reply and made me smile from one corner to another

 
You are spot on, on many counts. Money saved is money earned, counts so much, specially nowadays.
 
I just want this tank to succeed. I know being a beginner its not going to be perfect and i will encounter a few problems down the line but if i let it fail due to lack of funds/research/effort then i will be kicking myself.
 
I did place the order for new API kit but have now cancelled it.
 
As you can see from the pic we are definitely getting somewhere. I can tell nitrite is 0.5ppm but i cant really say where exactly is the ammonia. it looks like somewhere between 1 and 2 ppm.
 
Now i dont know how to proceed. Do i follow Dr Tim's advice or follow the TTA sticky?
 
Do i let ammonia drop below 0.75ppm and then add enough to get it to 3ppm again? or add ammonia regularly as per Dr Tim's advice?
 
Needless to say - Thank you soooo much for helping out. Appreciated

 
 

 

[daizeUK]

That's great news, I'm so glad your cycle is progressing!  Can't see the pic though.
 
TTA's sticky is designed for those who are cycling without a bacterial starter so your actions will be slightly different.  The instructions you should follow are the ones that TTA gave you in post #11 earlier in the thread.  You should now let ammonia fall to around 0.25ppm and then add another 2ppm of ammonia.  Then wait again and repeat until all ammonia and nitrite is gone within 24 hours of adding the 2ppm.  Does that make sense?

 

[Maikash]

Once ammonia falls below or is around 0.25 keep adding it to bring it back to 2ppm until is starts precessing it within 24 hours. Makes perfect sense
 
Cheers Daize.
 
I have no idea why the pic is not showing. Im new to all this stuff. I can see it when im logged in but  cant when im logged out.
 
Here's the link to the photo : http/s1362.photobucket.com/user/maikash/media/20130912_152231_zps951b6a30.jpg.html

 

[Maikash]

The cycle is progressing nicely now. Got a question about adding more ammonia. I just read a post here that once ammonia start dropping to 0ppm within 12-24 hrs i should 4-5 days before adding a snack feed. But my sitaution is slightly different as i used Dr Tim's One & Only.
 
Ammonia here is dropping from 2ppm to 0ppm within 8-12 hrs. I have been adding 2ppm everyday for last 3. I'll have to add 2ppm twice a day to keep ammonia up as its disappearing quite quickly.
 
Should i now wait for 4/5 days before adding more or shall i keep adding it once it drops near 0ppm? Nitrite reading is 5ppm.
 
Thanks.

 

[daizeUK]

You need to wait for your nitrite to fall, I really expected it to fall sooner than that
 
The purpose of adding 2ppm ammonia is to test how long it takes for both ammonia and nitrite to fall to zero, apologies that I didn't make that clearer.  We need to get that nitrite down now and more ammonia will keep pushing it higher.
 
Stop adding ammonia and keep testing nitrite daily, if nitrite falls to zero then add another 2ppm ammonia.  If nitrite isn't zero within 5 days then go ahead and add a small snack dose of ammonia.  Hopefully it shouldn't take that long though!

 

[Maikash]

Thank you so much Daize.
 
You were were clear. I should apologize Just trying to get my head around it lol
 
All good. I'll test for nitrites daily now. I assume it shouldnt matter if ammonia is 0ppm while waiting for the nitrites to come down.
 
Thank you once again for your help. Appreciate it.

 

[daizeUK]

 I assume it shouldnt matter if ammonia is 0ppm while waiting for the nitrites to come down.

 
No it's fine... two completely different sets of bacteria   The A-bacs will survive for 5 days before they need a snack to keep them going.
Let us know how your nitrite gets on!

 

[Maikash]

 

 I assume it shouldnt matter if ammonia is 0ppm while waiting for the nitrites to come down.

 
No it's fine... two completely different sets of bacteria

  The A-bacs will survive for 5 days before they need a snack to keep them going.
Let us know how your nitrite gets on!
 

 
 
Nice one
 
Will definitely post the results. Hopefully not so long.