cheesy feet
Fish Aficionado
I know im just a little voice coming from the dark corner lol, but really to come to a conclusion more tests/experiments need to be done.Then the information from them put forward and discussed. 
Fuel To The Fire Of Acclimatization
- Thread starter jollysue
- Start date
ArauraDiscus
Fish Addict
What post am I ignoring. Lol
You haven't replied to these points:
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...t&p=1715276
http
http
While I don't expect you to personally rebut all posts made, I am interested how you align your position that the koi club article supports 30 mins acclimatisation when the author of said articles says not to bother if the fish has been bagged for 2 hours+.
Do you mean hasn't been bagged for over 2 hours? I agree that acclimation is neccessary especially if the bags are being shipped. With the koi guy support a lenght of time in bag similar to that. I however feel with no back up facts, that whatever you can do to help them acclimate, yopu should do it. I believe that letting them sit in the bag for 30 minutes is in fact, better than dropping them in for two reasons.
1. The fish in the tank get to see the new fish before they are introduced and vice versa. This allows for the new fish to see what they are up against so to speak, and hide if need be, in contrats to immediately being plopped into a tank with fish he has no clue existed.
2. Also the temperatures do equalize when the bags are floating, which in turn may or may not help the fish, but it can't hurt it in my opinion. I only can forsee it being a help to the fish, and if it truly isn't, it can't hurt them, especially for the short trip home from petstores, which is part of what we are arguing here. I have absolutely no scientific evidence at the moment to back this. All I have is my true belief, educated belief if you will, that it can't hurt them to float the bag and if anything it helps (unless it has been a long trip with a large accumulation of ammonia)
andywg
Bored into leaving
Sorry to do this, but earlier you used the koi club guy's comments to infer I was proved wrong and that 30 mins acclimatisation should be used. Now you have stepped back from there. IT is good that you stepped back, but can you not see my point that without any scientific proof of anything, nothing has been proved?
Aphotic Phoenix
Fish Addict
I could state from multiple personal observation that floating in the bag could in fact be more "stressful" than a rapid change in temperature and/or pH (of which I have subjected some less-than-hardy fish to).
Unfortunately I do not have laboratory equipment, nor feel like taking blood samples from my fish to ascertain such information. Similarly, I do not have the resources to perform the necessary tests to compare stress reactions across a broad spectrum of species, and situations for variables such as trip duration, number of specimens sharing the same container, and "investigation" by various unconfined tank inhabitants.
This thread is starting to look like my Checkers Computer thread. A lot of the same players and learning a lot about a lot of subjects besides the actual topic.
Seriously, the whole point of presenting a point of view is to educate others. If you don't have sources to back it up though, don't expect others to buy into it just because you say it is so. If the OP was meant as just information to ponder, that's fine. I just did it in the thread I started about stunting. I didn't have a major opinion one way or the other about the information I cited. I was mainly opening the floor for people to chime in and present confirming or conflictiing views which I think has been done here. I have already learned more than I knew.
But as has been stated by andywg, information not backed by sources is just hearsay (not his words but basically the extent of it). And if you're going to throw a point out as fact, then you should have the information and sources to back your point. I have had a couple previous jobs where I had to argue points to get things our office and district needed and I made sure I had all my information in place with the Is dotted and Ts crossed before I sat down at the table to plead my case.
And lastly andywg's avatar, personal life, posting style and argumentativeness aren't the subject of this post. Nor is anyone elses. Those of you that are telling him how much he loves to argue sure must like it too or you wouldn't be here arguing with him. So in that sense, to use an old phrase, it's the pot calling the kettle black.
Seriously, the whole point of presenting a point of view is to educate others. If you don't have sources to back it up though, don't expect others to buy into it just because you say it is so. If the OP was meant as just information to ponder, that's fine. I just did it in the thread I started about stunting. I didn't have a major opinion one way or the other about the information I cited. I was mainly opening the floor for people to chime in and present confirming or conflictiing views which I think has been done here. I have already learned more than I knew.
But as has been stated by andywg, information not backed by sources is just hearsay (not his words but basically the extent of it). And if you're going to throw a point out as fact, then you should have the information and sources to back your point. I have had a couple previous jobs where I had to argue points to get things our office and district needed and I made sure I had all my information in place with the Is dotted and Ts crossed before I sat down at the table to plead my case.
And lastly andywg's avatar, personal life, posting style and argumentativeness aren't the subject of this post. Nor is anyone elses. Those of you that are telling him how much he loves to argue sure must like it too or you wouldn't be here arguing with him. So in that sense, to use an old phrase, it's the pot calling the kettle black.
ArauraDiscus
Fish Addict
Proven wrong a certain level I should say. That acclimation for a new fish can definately be beneficial in at least certain circumstances.
-germ-
Rheophilic....
Edited; Silly big post.
Basically methinks Andy has a great deal to offer this forum.
Mainly based on his (i believe) pedantic nature.
This should be appreciated and respected, however frustrating posters find it.
Basically methinks Andy has a great deal to offer this forum.
Mainly based on his (i believe) pedantic nature.
This should be appreciated and respected, however frustrating posters find it.
OP
OP
jollysue
Fish Connoisseur
I had hoped that there would be more contributed, that there would be more people interested in finding information and contributing it. It is difficult, it seems to me, to stay on topic when there are so many temptations to go off topic, including my own contributions in that area.
I find lots of flaws in many of the arguments put forward, and it takes a lot to resist jumping on them. But they often don't contribute to the topic even broadly of fish keeping.
Just for reference, my field is behaviorism and behavior modification. I am daily working with a team to recognise and assist change in behaviors that are considered by professionals and society to need changing.
But that is not what this thread was posted for. I did not post it to prove anything or to bait anyone. I posted it for those that would find the ideas presented of interest and would like to investigate them with whatever tools they can contribute.
While some value only testable studies, others value experential evidence. Both I believe have a place. And everyone can contribute. But I would like to encourage us all to stick to the topic and make room for those with differing observations.
Thanks to all those who have continually dragged the thread kicking and screaming back to topic.
I personally have found it tedious to wade through pages of personal attacks--even when I agreed with them and was rooting for one side or another.
My experience today:
I recieved a box of 4 bags of rare and semi rare Corydoras juvies with only a short warning. The box was shipped two day Fed Ex, not by my choice. Shipping was paid by the breeder. They were in transit before I knew they were coming or how they would be shipped. I have had many, many, fish shipped and intransit for 2 to 3 days w/o any loss. These were intansit at least from 3 pm on Monday to 3 pm on Wed. This is not really that unusual.
When they arrived, one bag was fouled. It had 3 fish, two were dead. That bag stank.
Given what we know about water chemistry changes and acclimation issues, what should we know further and what was my best plan, in the opinion of all who would like to contribute? (Opinion probably isn't the best word here, but it will do for me for now.)
I find lots of flaws in many of the arguments put forward, and it takes a lot to resist jumping on them. But they often don't contribute to the topic even broadly of fish keeping.
Just for reference, my field is behaviorism and behavior modification. I am daily working with a team to recognise and assist change in behaviors that are considered by professionals and society to need changing.
But that is not what this thread was posted for. I did not post it to prove anything or to bait anyone. I posted it for those that would find the ideas presented of interest and would like to investigate them with whatever tools they can contribute.
While some value only testable studies, others value experential evidence. Both I believe have a place. And everyone can contribute. But I would like to encourage us all to stick to the topic and make room for those with differing observations.
Thanks to all those who have continually dragged the thread kicking and screaming back to topic.
I personally have found it tedious to wade through pages of personal attacks--even when I agreed with them and was rooting for one side or another.
My experience today:
I recieved a box of 4 bags of rare and semi rare Corydoras juvies with only a short warning. The box was shipped two day Fed Ex, not by my choice. Shipping was paid by the breeder. They were in transit before I knew they were coming or how they would be shipped. I have had many, many, fish shipped and intransit for 2 to 3 days w/o any loss. These were intansit at least from 3 pm on Monday to 3 pm on Wed. This is not really that unusual.
When they arrived, one bag was fouled. It had 3 fish, two were dead. That bag stank.
Given what we know about water chemistry changes and acclimation issues, what should we know further and what was my best plan, in the opinion of all who would like to contribute? (Opinion probably isn't the best word here, but it will do for me for now.)
andywg
Bored into leaving
So why give it the subtitle "This will spin some heads"? It would appear you were looking for some reaction, or else you would have just asked for input as Miss Wiggle previously did in a similar thread and RDD did on his stunting thread.
They can, but when requesting evidence of statements of fact there has to be evidence to back it up. Evidence from experience can state what appears to be happening to that person at that time. It is generally not sufficient to enable an accurate description of why what is happeneing is happening.
We "should" know no more. However, it would be nice to see some papers on exactly how long fish take to acclimatise to a temperature and what systems acclimatise in what times. Some have said 10 days to acclimatise to a temperature. I doubt this since a university only uses 7 days to acclimatise to a different temperature. Also, I provided a link to show that some functions are completely acclimatised within 20 hours.
At this point in time, whatever works best for you. there is supporting theories from fish physiology to support both acclimatisation and just plopping. If it works for you, go for it.
I always go with the old addage if it ain't broke, don't fix it! There is no way to completely eliminate the stress involved in moving a fish from shop to home. The amounts by which this method would reduce such stress are minimal at best, and would have an equivalent effect upon the welfare of the fish.
On the ongoing sideline, I quite enjoy andywg's style of writing. He has good english skills and conveys himself well, which is more than some do here...
On the ongoing sideline, I quite enjoy andywg's style of writing. He has good english skills and conveys himself well, which is more than some do here...
In your case with 2 dead fish out of 3, I would probably just plop the fish. I would think at that point, you couldn't harm it much more than it already was. I would make sure it was a q-tank though just in case the ead fish were a result of disease rather than poor handling by FedEx.
My take on the acclimation process is basically what andywg just said. If it works (and has worked) for you, then do it. As I've already said, whether it takes 10 days to acclimate to temperature or not is really not relevant to receiving fish except in rare cases. Even in your recent case, the fish were only in the bag for 3 to 4 days so if it is true, they wouldn't be acclimated to the temp of the bag yet anyway and even at that, the temp of the bag probably changed numerous times during their trip, both up and down. We are just getting them back to stability.
Personally, I feel that the actual water parameters (ammonia, pH, KH, etc.) would be far more important when acclimating fish than the temperature is. But even at that, I would like to see the actual water parameter readings on the bag water at the time it is opened, 10 minutes and 30 minutes after opening just to see how the parameters change when fresh air is let in.
My take on the acclimation process is basically what andywg just said. If it works (and has worked) for you, then do it. As I've already said, whether it takes 10 days to acclimate to temperature or not is really not relevant to receiving fish except in rare cases. Even in your recent case, the fish were only in the bag for 3 to 4 days so if it is true, they wouldn't be acclimated to the temp of the bag yet anyway and even at that, the temp of the bag probably changed numerous times during their trip, both up and down. We are just getting them back to stability.
Personally, I feel that the actual water parameters (ammonia, pH, KH, etc.) would be far more important when acclimating fish than the temperature is. But even at that, I would like to see the actual water parameter readings on the bag water at the time it is opened, 10 minutes and 30 minutes after opening just to see how the parameters change when fresh air is let in.
andywg
Bored into leaving
The biggest problem with this thread is it has mixed two seperate sub-threads together:
1) What type of acclimatisation appears to give the best survival rate?
2) What is the science behind acclimatisation for fish that have been shipped?
Point 1 is entirely open to people's experiences. Different people have different results.
Point 2 requries scientific evidence and observation and cannot just rely on things typed on the internet.
You can't use examples from Point 1 for Point 2 because they do not have controls on them, meaning one cannot discern what the relevant factors are that are affecting any results. There is currently a dearth of information available on Point 2.
Without any further information being offered on Point 2, I do not feel there can be any better answer on Point 1 than:
"Go with what works best for you; I do this, others do that, your mileage may vary."
I would love to see more evidence on the acclimatisation periods of fish though, and this is certainly a topic I will be recommending for future debate in the science forum.
On side note, From reading through one of my ichtyology texts, it does appear that when kept in an elevated temperature, some fish generate certain proteins. These can also be generated when the water conditions are sub-optimal. I shall try and look this up again when I get in tonight. It doesn't massively help us here from what I can see, but may lead towards better papers.
1) What type of acclimatisation appears to give the best survival rate?
2) What is the science behind acclimatisation for fish that have been shipped?
Point 1 is entirely open to people's experiences. Different people have different results.
Point 2 requries scientific evidence and observation and cannot just rely on things typed on the internet.
You can't use examples from Point 1 for Point 2 because they do not have controls on them, meaning one cannot discern what the relevant factors are that are affecting any results. There is currently a dearth of information available on Point 2.
Without any further information being offered on Point 2, I do not feel there can be any better answer on Point 1 than:
"Go with what works best for you; I do this, others do that, your mileage may vary."
I would love to see more evidence on the acclimatisation periods of fish though, and this is certainly a topic I will be recommending for future debate in the science forum.
On side note, From reading through one of my ichtyology texts, it does appear that when kept in an elevated temperature, some fish generate certain proteins. These can also be generated when the water conditions are sub-optimal. I shall try and look this up again when I get in tonight. It doesn't massively help us here from what I can see, but may lead towards better papers.
fishlette
Fish Addict
this subject is quite fascinating and in depth really. this was my experience yesterday: i bought i yellow lined blenny home from work today. i already have a bi colour blenny but i was told the striped one would be ok because the occupy different areas of the tank.
anyway, i pegged the beg to the side of the tank and a second later the blenny jumped out of the bag into the tank. the temp would have been quite different as i had been standing outside talking for a little while and its quite cold here. my tank is at 24.5. all seemed fine with him until my bi colour, who admittedly has been roaming more of the tank lately, decided he wanted this new blenny gone. my only option was either my large breeder net or my half cycled, unheated 25gallon nano tank. temo in that tank was 21c. now considering he can obviously jumo, i figured the option of the breeder net was a no go. so the nano was my only choice. i got my hubby to do a large water change while i tried to catch the blenny. unfortunately i now use natural sea water which has been sitting in tubs on my front porch and the water was about 20c. i had no choice. i had to put him in there. i figured i would put him in a bag for a while and slowly bring that temp down. even with this thread in mind, i didnt feel a nearly 5 degree drop would be good. the bag was small so i figured ten minutes would be enough for him to be at least a little prepared for the temp he was going into.
ive watched him for the last day and he seems to be doing brilliantly.
my thoughts are that as long as there is some preparation for the temp change, it will be better accepted. however, in an instance where the temp difference is only a couple of degrees, i think the plop method is fine (mainly referring to freshwater here though).
with regards to other elements being of importance eg; hardness, ph etc i guess it would depend on where the fish was coming from. if its just travelled ten minutes from the local lfs then chances are, as long as your water is kept at the right temp, stats etc then the plop method should be fine. although as previously mentioned, there are certain fish that would still require certain conditions like discus etc
thats just my thoughts anyways
with regards to the unpleasantness in this thread, i think the saying that there are two sides to every story applies here. one is offering well researched opinions and thoughts but in most cases not going about it in the right manner. the others are responding emotionally and allowing a faceless man typing stuff to get to them. when i first started at this forum i found many people quite abrasive and felt the need to tell them so. then after a while i just couldnt be bothered. we are all different people and thats what makes the world go round. while i agree that i think sometimes andy should restrain from saying certain things, sometimes its just easier to pick out the crap, find the facts and helpful stuff there is and roll with it. just ignore the rest. really guys, there are way more important things in life than worrying about andywg.
in short, its not always what he says, its how he says it. i would describe it as arrogance in a nutshell however, this does not in any way make him wrong. i have found on many, many occasions, that he has been of huge help. he has even cleared up a few wrong things i have been told by people on here in the past. after him telling me these things, i looked ufrther into it and found him to be right. no, im not a sidekick or a suck up, im jsut someone who can appreciate good advice even if i have to pick it out of the crap. sorry andy, i mean no offence to you i only state how i feel
please dont attack me, im just offering a view from outside the 'debate square'
anyway, i pegged the beg to the side of the tank and a second later the blenny jumped out of the bag into the tank. the temp would have been quite different as i had been standing outside talking for a little while and its quite cold here. my tank is at 24.5. all seemed fine with him until my bi colour, who admittedly has been roaming more of the tank lately, decided he wanted this new blenny gone. my only option was either my large breeder net or my half cycled, unheated 25gallon nano tank. temo in that tank was 21c. now considering he can obviously jumo, i figured the option of the breeder net was a no go. so the nano was my only choice. i got my hubby to do a large water change while i tried to catch the blenny. unfortunately i now use natural sea water which has been sitting in tubs on my front porch and the water was about 20c. i had no choice. i had to put him in there. i figured i would put him in a bag for a while and slowly bring that temp down. even with this thread in mind, i didnt feel a nearly 5 degree drop would be good. the bag was small so i figured ten minutes would be enough for him to be at least a little prepared for the temp he was going into.
ive watched him for the last day and he seems to be doing brilliantly.
my thoughts are that as long as there is some preparation for the temp change, it will be better accepted. however, in an instance where the temp difference is only a couple of degrees, i think the plop method is fine (mainly referring to freshwater here though).
with regards to other elements being of importance eg; hardness, ph etc i guess it would depend on where the fish was coming from. if its just travelled ten minutes from the local lfs then chances are, as long as your water is kept at the right temp, stats etc then the plop method should be fine. although as previously mentioned, there are certain fish that would still require certain conditions like discus etc
thats just my thoughts anyways
with regards to the unpleasantness in this thread, i think the saying that there are two sides to every story applies here. one is offering well researched opinions and thoughts but in most cases not going about it in the right manner. the others are responding emotionally and allowing a faceless man typing stuff to get to them. when i first started at this forum i found many people quite abrasive and felt the need to tell them so. then after a while i just couldnt be bothered. we are all different people and thats what makes the world go round. while i agree that i think sometimes andy should restrain from saying certain things, sometimes its just easier to pick out the crap, find the facts and helpful stuff there is and roll with it. just ignore the rest. really guys, there are way more important things in life than worrying about andywg.
in short, its not always what he says, its how he says it. i would describe it as arrogance in a nutshell however, this does not in any way make him wrong. i have found on many, many occasions, that he has been of huge help. he has even cleared up a few wrong things i have been told by people on here in the past. after him telling me these things, i looked ufrther into it and found him to be right. no, im not a sidekick or a suck up, im jsut someone who can appreciate good advice even if i have to pick it out of the crap. sorry andy, i mean no offence to you i only state how i feel
please dont attack me, im just offering a view from outside the 'debate square'
andywg
Bored into leaving
My sentiments exactly
andy, i mean no offence to you i only state how i feel
As I frequently state, I care not how people on this forum feel about me, so no offence can be taken.
I am glad that people read what I say and then check for themselves. That is my entire aim; that people check on the accuracy of what is written and where their sources are.
To those that do not like the factual way I post, I ask (as was posed when a load of bleeding hearts forced CFC on strike) do you want accurate information written in an occasionally uncomfortable tone, or do you want all pleasant and smiley posts with incorrect information?
The attacks are now in PM (hence the latest quote addition in my sig
), so there should be little worry there. Similar threads
Most reactions
-
396 -
260 -
198 -
183 -
176 -
172
-
167 -
160 -
143 -
108 -
107 -
106 -
99 -
97 -
F
70