Fuel To The Fire Of Acclimatization

[Tolak]

But you are anthropomorphising the issue. You are looking at what you feel, and assuming it is the same for fish.


========================

No I am not assuming at all, I know that animals in general cannot with stand a sudden 50 degree drop in temperature. Not a single animal can. Many species go extinct because of a gradual 4 degree difference in temperature. An instant change of fifty is unbearable by any animal, save humans. Do you disagree just to disagree? I get that feeling from you.

I know of plenty of animals that can withstand a sudden 50 degree drop. Every dog I have ever owned walks out of a 65 degree house in the dead of winter, out into a sub zero back yard, and takes care of business. Good luck getting them back in if there is fresh snow. Plenty of folks have had unwanted wildlife decide that the inside of their house is a good place to hang out in the winter, these animals come & go with a 50 degree temperature difference without a problem.

Bob; I don't have any culls that are shipping size, I'll grow some to sellable size, bag & box them, and depending on the weather add a heat pack if needed. I have some angels just about hitting pea size, another 4-6 weeks should make them sellable.

It's easy to fake a 24-36 hour ship, tossing the box outside overnight, and perhaps in my truck for a little drive should simulate a fish being shipped. I could do a few of these with differing times, and differing acclimation procedures. It's something I've been meaning to do as it is, just to get a better idea of what needs to be done if I decide to start shipping fish. The water tests would just take a little extra. This way you would know the starting point of the water they are shipped in.

 

[Bignose]

How can it possibly take 10 days to acclimate to a new temperature? All we have to do to know that this is ridiculously wrong is look to nature. How could any fish in the wild possibly live in a small body of water, then? The sun comes out and warms that body of water, usually causing a pretty significant change in temperature every day. Or, consider when a quick rain happens like when a cold front comes through on a hot summer's day. Chances are that the rain temperature is not the same as the pond's water. Or how about where two river's meet? What are the chances that both river's temperatures are exactly the same?

Finally, in nature, there are many, many examples of fish that primarily live in one strata (that's the fancy word for temperature layer in a body of water) but will move to another to feed, or to spawn. I have serious doubts that nature would be set up to make feeding stressful.

Is there any citeable evidence to back this 10 day number up?

 

[andywg]

Is there any citeable evidence to back this 10 day number up?

Easy bignose, I asked for that and just got slammed.

 

[andywg]

just as Andywg probably didn't think that some people would find his avatar hugely offensive,

Actually, I knew some people would find it offensive. On this forum there is always someone who finds something offensive.

myself included.

How can you not find dancing Hitler funny? It's the shiznits! (and they wouldn't let me have the Swastika as an avatar, despite someone having the USSR flag and the USSR being responsible for anywhere up to 3 times as many deaths as the Nazis)

What probably turns people sour to your posting style is the 'bully' tag under the avatar and the gloating of being considered as a bully in the sig.

I should probably link to the thread where I was first called a bully. It was so funny I had to make it my title. I even got messages from a mod saying how stupid the other person was and ho they had no idea of what they were talking about.

I am interested to know what you would consider as an active admission of evidence, would having it reported in a factual book be credible enough?

If it is in a reference book the reputation of the author will be tarnished by printing something that is wrong, however later advances can show previous things believed true to be wrong. If it is in a reference book I would certainly listen to it, though with the 10 day acclimatisation period I would like to see a cited peer reviewed study which found that. I have exactrly the same problems with that as described by bignose above (and I hinted at the natural thermocline breaching of animals in one of my earlier posts).

 

[jollysue]

I am quite ignorant of biology. What does this say?here here

I know these are poor, but it indicates that for those who know where to look, there is information.

I thought someone might be better equiped than me.

 

[jollysue]

I found that UC Davis Aquatic Center and UC Davis Hydrolics Laboratory acclimate their fish to temperature in this project here for 7 days. I think UC Davis (the premier University in its field in the US) qualifies as a substantive source. Their library would be a good source.

This article says to take days acclimating fish to new conditions.fish mag article It sites references.

this article/mag's acclimation steps:


Steps to better acclimation:

Prepare a mature biological filter for the quarantine system when possible. Benefits: Provides a stable environment without exposure to toxins such as ammonia.

Adjust the pH and temperature in the quarantine tank to match those at the retailer or the shipping water when possible. Benefits: The fish can be immediately removed from the transport bag and allowed to swim in oxygenated water. This reduces stress and helps fish to remove lactate acid and ammonia from their body. This also allows for slow acclimation to changes in pH and temperature over days rather than minutes or hours.

Employ hyposaline conditions. Benefits: Proactive approach to external parasites, and counteracts osmotic dysfunction due to the stress of transport and handling.

Use dim lighting or red light. Benefits: Prevents photo shock and has a calming effect on fish.

Avoid removing fish from their native environment (water) and the use of nets. Benefits: Water to water transfer with the use of clear plastic bags or specimen containers prevents stress, gill collapse, lactate acid build-up, and reduces injuries.

Get the fish out off shipment water and into clean oxygenated water immediately. Benefits: Allowing fish to swim in oxygenated water away from toxins reduces stress, helps reduce stress hormones in the bloodstream, helps fish remove toxins from their body and provides oxygen essential to osmoregulation and other bodily processes.

Add a polymer such as found in Pro Tech Coat Marineâ„¢ or StressGuardâ„¢ (polyvinylpyrrolidone) to the quarantine tank. Benefits: Protects wounds and aids in osmoregulation.

Use Beta glucan, vitamins and Omega-3 fatty acids. Benefits: Beta glucan enhances immune function, while vitamins and Omega-3 fatty acids help alleviate stress and speed recovery.

Withhold feeding for 24 hours. Benefits: Metabolic energy is directed toward functions essential to immediate survival such as regaining normal homeostasis.

Slow acclimation to changes in temperature and pH. Benefits: Less stressful on fish than quicker acclimation and should improve survival.


The conclusion says it all:


Conclusion
My recommendations for updating marine teleost fish acclimation procedures are not based upon what is easiest to do, most cost effective, quickest or even what is most practical. My first concern is for the health and longevity of captive fish. I believe that these animals are entitled to benefit from all the knowledge and skill we can provide, giving them the best possible chance of a long and healthy existence in our care.
Acclimation involves more than merely getting fish used to water conditions: It includes helping animals recover from capture, transport and handling. The process of acclimation is not complete until the animals regain their strength, adapt to captivity, become familiar with new foods and grow accustomed to their tankmates and the aquarist that cares for them.One of the greatest things about marine aquarium keeping is that the hobby is continually evolving. Our willingness to examine new ideas and ways of doing things is one of the hobby's utmost strengths. As we gain knowledge and grow in our understanding of how to apply it, methods, procedures, equipment and other aspects change. Our skills to maintain, culture and sustain our hobby, along with the animals in our care, grows with each new advance.

References
Ako, H. Tamaru, C.S. Bass, P. & Lee, C.-S. "Enhancing the resistance of physical
stress in larvae of Mugil cephalus by the feeding of enriched Artemia nauplii." Aquacul-
ture,122, 81-90, 1994.
Andrews, C. Excell, A. & Carrington, N. "Manual of Fish Health." Firefly Books Ltd. Buffalo, New York, 2003.
Bartelme, T.D., "Reducing Losses Associated with Transport & Handling in Marine Teleost Fish." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, May, 2004.
http/www.marineaquariumadvice.com/reduci..._transport.html
Bartelme, T.D., "Beta Glucan as a Biological Defense Modulator: Helping Fish to Help Themselves ." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, September, 2003c.
http/www.marineaquariumadvice.com/beta_g..._modulator.html
Bartelme, T.D. "No Nets Please: Better Health Through Better Handling." Reefkeeping, September, 2003b.
http/www.marineaquariumadvice.com/no_nets_please.html
Carmichael, G.J. & Tomasso, J.R. "Survey of Fish Transportation Equipment and Techniques." Progressive Fish Culturist, 50, 155-159, 1988.
Carmicheal, G.J. Tomasso, J.R. Simco, B.A. & Davis, K.B. "Characterization and Alleviation of Stress Associated with Hauling Largemouth Bass." Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, 113, 778-785, 1984.
Carneiro, P.C.F. & Urbinati, E.C. "Salt as a Stress Response Mitigator of Matrinxa, Brycon cephalus (Gunther) ,During Transport." Aquaculture Research, 32, 297-304, 2001.
Kraul, S. Brittain, K. Cantrell, R. Nagao, T. Ako, H. Ogasawara, A. & Kitagawa, H. "Nutritional Factors Affecting Stress Resistance in Larval Mahimahi Coryphaena hippurus." Journal of the World Aquaculture Society, 24. 186-193, 1993.
Lambert, Y. Dutil, J-D & Munro, J. "Effects of intermediate and low salinity conditions on growth rate and food conversion of Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)."
Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences [CAN. J. FISH. AQUAT. SCI.]. Vol. 51, no. 7, pp. 1569-1576. 1994.
Lim, L.C. Wong, C.C. Koh, C.H. Dhert, P. & Sorgeloos, P. "A Stress Resistance Test For Quality Evaluation of Guppy (Poecilia reticulata)." Abstract Book of First AVA Technical Seminar, pp. 4-5, Agri-food & Veterinary Authority of Singapore, Singapore, 1 September 2000.
Lowry, T. "Quarantine of Marine Teleost Fish Using Hyposalinity." Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine, Nov, 2004.
Mazeaud, M.M. Mazeaud, F. & Donaldson, E.M. "Primary and Secondary Effects of Stress in Fish: Some New Data with a General Review," Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, 106, 201-12, 1977.
Noga, E.J. "Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment." Ames, IA: Iowa State University Press, 2000.
Pickering, A.D. "Stress Responses and Disease Resistance in Farmed Fish." In Aqua Nor 87, Conference 3: Fish Diseases - a Threat to the International Fish Farming Industry. Pp. 35-49. Norske Fiskeoppdretteres Forening, Trondheim , 1987.
Robertson, L. Thomas, P. & Arnold, C.R. "Plasma Cortisol and Secondary Stress Responses of Cultured Red Drum (Sciaenops occellatus) to Several Transportation Procedures." Aquaculture, 68, 115-130, 1988.
Secombs, C.J. & Fletcher, T.C. "The Role of Phagocytes in the Protective Mechanisms of Fish". Annual Review of Fish Diseases, 2, 53-71, 1992.
Sleet, R.B. & Weber, L.J. "The Rate and Manner of Seawater Ingestion by a Marine Teleost and Corresponding Water Modification by the Gut." Comp. Biochem. Physiol. 72A, 469-475, 1982.
Spotte, S. "Seawater Aquariums - The Captive Environment." John Wiley & Sons, Inc. New York, NY, 1979.
Stoskopf, M.K. "Fish Medicine." W.B. Saunders Company. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1993.
Wedemeyer, G.A. "Handling and Transportation of Salmoniods," Principals of Salmoniod Aquaculture. Pennel, W. & Barton, B., eds., Elsevier Publishing, Netherlands, 1996.
Created by liquid
Contributors : Terry D. Bartelme
Pomacanthus Publications, LLC
Last modified 2006-03-15 03:05

I am sure there are lots of things to argue with and about, but there is information that is applicable to the inquiry.

As I look it appears to me that the higher the educational level of the source the more indication that full acclimation of a fish takes more than a few hours or minutes.

And for fun here Somebody is doing something.



here

There are many relevant portions, but perhaps most relevant are here:


The earth's basic air envelope is made up of about 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, and 0.03% Carbon Dioxide. There are also traces of several other elemental and molecular gasses but they will be ignored since they have no known effects within the pond environment. Concentrations of these gases within water is a whole different story. The concentrations are much smaller and are measured in milligrams per liter (mg/l) or somewhat equivalently, in parts per million (ppm). A typical pond at a temperature of 70° F. will have concentrations of about 13 mg/l Nitrogen, 9 mg/l Oxygen, and 35 mg/l Carbon Dioxide. As the air components dissolve into the water, a point is reached where no more can be added. This point is called saturation. The saturation points are different for each of the gases and are dependent upon several different factors but temperature is the most important. As the temperature increases, the water simply cannot hold as much of each type of gas. For oxygen, the approximate saturation level at 50° F. is 11.5 mg/l, at 70° F., 9 mg/l, and at 90° F., 7.5 mg/l. (See Figure 1) Impurities added to the water (i.e. salt) further decrease these saturation levels. Four pounds of salt per hundred gallons of water (5 ppt) will decrease the oxygen saturation levels about 1 mg/l.

Oxygenation During Transport
When plastic bagging fish for transport, use only enough water to just cover the dorsal fin. Squeeze out the current air, add 5-10 times the amount of oxygen as water. This is normally sufficient oxygen for up to 6 hours (if oxygen is not available, just plain air in the bag is sufficient for an hour or two).

Ammonia build up and temperature control then become the major problems. Based on controlled experiments, (the experiments were conducted using bass, trout, and carp but it is assumed that the results also apply to Koi) it was found that floating the transport bags in the pond for 30 minutes prior to release decreased the mortality rate due to temperature shock, particularly for small fish. This test was conducted with the fish bagged for one hour. For fish that had been bagged for four hours, it was found that the mortality rate increased for all sizes of the fish if the bag was floated for 30 minutes. My recommendation is that if the fish have been bagged for two or more hours, it is better to release them immediately than to subject the fish to the "bad" water in the bag for an additional half-hour. Thirty minutes of floating will prevent a sudden shock if the temperature difference is large, but it will not acclimatize the fish to the new temperature. Actual temperature acclimation of a fish takes several days, similar to us dealing with jet lag. It is not only the temperature the fish needs to be accustomed to but also the pH, hardness, alkalinity, "the taste", etc. of it's new surroundings.

One more then I have to get to work. I have only skimmed most of these. But they all refer to acclimating and generally agree that it takes time, but that bad water is worse than shock.

here from Aqua Science Research Group.


Which appears to be the article adapted and sent to me.

 

[andywg]

Most of the above relates to marine fish, for which very few people advocate the "just chuck them in" method due to the additional problem of osmotic shock on top of any other woes.

Interesting to see that Advanced Aquarist (usually a very good source of info) still maintains that pH swings are bad, despite there being research (found by bignose in previous topics) that fish can alter their own pH very swiftly and it is not the big killer previously thought. However, related swings in hardness will also show changes in pH and it is possible that a changing pH may be a symptom, but not cause, of a problem (such as a change in the hardness, or salinity of the water).

The universities will be doing it for 7 days to be absolutely sure that the temperature is not playing an important part in any changes/observations noticed. This would, for my mind, make the 10 day amount at least 3-4 days too long as an absolute maximum (rather than some being longer than 10 days). If they were to take any less time than the believed (or proved) maximum to accilmatise fish, then many tests are going to be flawed. from this point I believe we can strike out the 10 day claim as being unlikely in the face of scientific process.

Edit---

The last two links in your post, jollysue, have no references assigned to them. We cannot ascertain where any of their information is coming from and how accurate/in date it is.

One thing I forgot to add is that many university experiments involve large shifts in temepreature. Most of the bits I have read involve testing at 8, 15 and 25-30 degrees C. Shifting a fish from 8 to 25 degrees is somewhat different to acclimatising it from the bag.

 

[jollysue]

Sorry about the Aqua Science link. I'll try to fix it.

Your objections are the ones I expected and more nevertheless, it seems to me that there is some indication that acclimating fish takes longer than 20 minutes. I found many references to the changes in water within the bag when opened and the problem of keeping the fish in those conditions. I did not post everything and I am running out of time. Suffice it to say there are issues to be addressed and lots to learn. Please forgive any quick unthinking idioms or word uses that you may find annoying. Is a smiley enough?

Aquascience Research Group

Try that. It is the source of the article that was sent to me.

Aquarium page

home page

 

[jollysue]

The Koi article was by by Norm Meck of the Koi Club of San Deigo here

While I think that acclimating efforts are important, and I am not ready to throw out the importance of temperature, I also do not find the idea that it takes time to fully acclimate to new everything unbelievable.

Looking at the methods that are used and advocated is important. What is appropriate in one situation is not in another.

 

[andywg]

The article (again) doesn't state where it gets the figures from. Also, Norm Meck fails to state where he gets his information from. I could crate a webpage with a science sounding name and write "facts". It does not make them so without some supporting evidence. Evidence is what is severly lacking in this "it takes 10 days" originally claimed.

nevertheless, it seems to me that there is some indication that acclimating fish takes longer than 20 minutes.

It may well take some time for all of the fish's body functions to completely change over to the new temperature. But if a fish takes a couple of days to be able to withdraw a seldom needed nutrient from its food, then it is not really going to affect acclimatisation time after shipping.

If you wanted to really draw acclimatisation down to its full conclusion (and incorporate everything that could be associated to acclimatsiation), then one could include behavioural differences. My betta has been in my reef for nearly a month but still rarely comes out with any light, and has not been seen feeding with the rest of the tank. One could say his acclimatisaion is taking over a month.

The actual definition of acclimatsation could well become important here. Are we discussing transporting the fish into the tank in the safest way possible, or the process until it has completely returned to a stable condition including behavioural traits?

Looking at the methods that are used and advocated is important. What is appropriate in one situation is not in another.

This is almost certainly the case. I use a completely different method depending on whether the new stock is FW or SW, fish or invert (and whether an invert is sessile or motile).

 

[fishlette]

its pretty late where i live, so anything scientific out of me is out of the question. before i started coming into the forum, i had no idea that you had to acclimitise the fish in any way. i had, somehow, kept bettas and gouramis and had never floated them or done anything other than put them straight in the water. never had any probs. now i still just add them to the tank. except for them marines. i tend to be a little more 'by the book' still with them. my simple reasoning for this is: in a fishes natural environment, there are almost constant temperature changes in the water. night time is cool to cold, then days warm to hot. temps go up and down up and down every day. different depths of water would be different temps also and fish would swim in and out of these different depths therefore enduring changes in temperature on a regular basis. my second reasoning is this: in summer, i dont need heaters in the tank. the days here get to about 28 on average and the water in the tank is usually about 27. at 1 oclock in the morning, its usually about 22-23. at 10am its 25 and at 3pm its 27. and so on. i agree with andywg. we need to remember that a lot of fish come from areas where their environment might not always be kind to them. harsh temperatures in some areas could wreak havoc on temps in a small body of water.maybe this isnt all scientific and full of big words but its my understanding of it. its simplicity at its finest get them out of the crap water and into their new, clean water. theyll be much happier IMHO

The article (again) doesn't state where it gets the figures from. Also, Norm Meck fails to state where he gets his information from. I could crate a webpage with a science sounding name and write "facts". It does not make them so without some supporting evidence. Evidence is what is severly lacking in this "it takes 10 days" originally claimed.

nevertheless, it seems to me that there is some indication that acclimating fish takes longer than 20 minutes.

It may well take some time for all of the fish's body functions to completely change over to the new temperature. But if a fish takes a couple of days to be able to withdraw a seldom needed nutrient from its food, then it is not really going to affect acclimatisation time after shipping.If you wanted to really draw acclimatisation down to its full conclusion (and incorporate everything that could be associated to acclimatsiation), then one could include behavioural differences. My betta has been in my reef for nearly a month but still rarely comes out with any light, and has not been seen feeding with the rest of the tank. One could say his acclimatisaion is taking over a month.The actual definition of acclimatsation could well become important here. Are we discussing transporting the fish into the tank in the safest way possible, or the process until it has completely returned to a stable condition including behavioural traits?

Looking at the methods that are used and advocated is important. What is appropriate in one situation is not in another.

This is almost certainly the case. I use a completely different method depending on whether the new stock is FW or SW, fish or invert (and whether an invert is sessile or motile).

im 100% sure there is a perfectly good explanation for that but it reads like you have a betta in a marine tank hehe

 

[CruX]

myself included.

How can you not find dancing Hitler funny? It's the shiznits! (and they wouldn't let me have the Swastika as an avatar, despite someone having the USSR flag and the USSR being responsible for anywhere up to 3 times as many deaths as the Nazis)

I agree on the hammer and sickle front to a degree, however it was a recognisable and official flag, the swastika was an emblem that was flown as a flag, I am not sure it was officially the flag of Germany at any point though. It is true that the Soviets caused more deaths than the Nazis, and it has even been reported that when the Nazis pushed east further into the USSR the local populated were reported as feeling as being liberated by the Nazis. If you require a source, the book 'Stalingrad' references it if my memory serves me correctly. It's a tough to compare Communist USSR to Nazi Germany, the Soviets indiscriminently murdered to achieve their aims, whereas the Nazis carried out mass racially motivated murders, and indiscriminantly murdered people to acheive their aims.

For information from Wiki

The German (and Austrian) postwar criminal code makes the public showing of the Hakenkreuz (the swastika) and other Nazi symbols illegal and punishable, except for scholarly reasons. It is even censored from the lithographs on boxes of model kits, and the decals that come in the box. The swastikas on Hindu and Jain temples are exempt, as religious symbols cannot be banned in Germany. It has been proposed that this law be applied to all of the European Union.

The swastika (from Sanskrit svástika सà¥￾वासà¥￾तिक ) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (å￾￾) or left-facing (å￾￾) forms. The term is derived from Sanskrit svasti, meaning well-being. The Thai greeting sawasdee is from the same root and carries the same implication.

The hammer and sickle is a part of communist symbolism and its usage indicates an association with Communism, Communist Party, or Communist state. It features a hammer superimposed on a sickle, or visa versa. The two tools are symbols of the industrial proletariat and the peasantry; placing them together symbolises the unity between industrial and agricultural workers.

Two federal subjects of the post-Soviet Russian Federation use the hammer and sickle in its symbols: The Vladimir Oblast has them on its flag and the Bryansk Oblast has them on its coat of arms, which is also the central element of its flag.

Of course Wikipedia is not always a great source of information but quoted above are extracts from the page entitled 'swastika' and 'hammer and sickle' and could be used to argue either way for being allowed to display either of the icons as an avatar.

Do I find Hitler dancing funny? Not really, the only things I find funny about Hitler is the spelling mistake in his name, it is rumoured he was a quarter Jewish and that most of the women he had a relationship with felt compelled to attempt suicide.

 

[andywg]

im 100% sure there is a perfectly good explanation for that but it reads like you have a betta in a marine tank hehe

That is because I do

 

[fishlette]

im 100% sure there is a perfectly good explanation for that but it reads like you have a betta in a marine tank hehe

That is because I do

OMG!!!!!! really?? wow i never realised...lol i ony ask out of sheer curiosity, but how?? i had no idea after hearing everyone say how bettas dont like salt etc etc

 

[andywg]

the swastika was an emblem that was flown as a flag, I am not sure it was officially the flag of Germany at any point though.

Your wiki skills let you down

From Wiki's German Flag entry I have found that the swastika was flown alongside the Weimar republic flag (below) between 1933 and 1935.

In 1935 the Weimar Republic flag was banned and from 1935 and 1945 the Swastika (as shown below) was flown solely as the flag of the Third Reich (the Nazi "empire").