Last Tank Build: 40 Gallon Breeder With German Rams

[MuddyWaters]

Hey everyone! I have earmarked the last space available for me to build a tank. Otherwise known as the last space my wife will allow. I had 2 10 gallon tanks there- one with celestial pearl danios that I was unable to get to breed despite several methods and another with tons of java moss, caridina shrimp (crystal red) and some errantly purchased red-something-or-other-endlers that I bought on accident at the club auction. I moved the crystal reds and sold the other fish at auction, thus clearing space for a 40 gallon breeder.

I purchased it at the club auction for $2. One of the ends has a spiderweb crack in it, thus the price. I looked and found a place that would cut and sell me a replacement, and found a few youtube videos with enough information where I figured I could fix it. However, when the time arrived, Petsmart had a 50% off sale for Labor Day (US holiday on the first Monday of September), so I just bought one and put the cracked one in the crawl space under the house. I will do something with that later (or my kids will when I die, probably). The crawl space is sealed with and has a de-humidifier, so it's a good spot for stuff you don't want to get rid of, but don't have room for.

HARDWARE:
- 40 gallon breeder tank
- glass top for it
- Fluval FX4 filter (more than it needs, but it was on sale also, so why not)
- 2 bags of Fluval Stratum substrate (thinking I will put those in bags on the bottom )
- 2 bags of Caribsea natural color sand
- 1 bag of Caribsea pea sized gravel
- spray bar for the FX4
- Fluval Plant 3.0 light
I think that's it thusfar. I need a good heater to keep the tank at 82 degrees (27.7 C)- I'm thinking I might get 2 just as a safeguard and to ease the load on one. Is that overkill? I'd appreciate opinions.

I have 3 pieces of mopani wood I bought at the club auction. I have a bunch of large and small rocks. I might look around and get some different type rocks. What I have is smooth river rocks I bought at a local place that sells rocks and gravel for landscaping. The guy was chuckling when I pull up with my car and said, "I'll take these 10 rocks." Great price- $5 for the lot of them.

I have a couple of caves I used to breed Kribensis with. They have bred so much I pulled them out of the 75 gallon tank. I have way too many in that tank. Selling them off bit by bit at the auction, but it's hard to catch those guys.

PLANTS:
I'm going to put some plants in, but nothing too challenging- I don't think there's too much that will thrive in that hot water anyway. The focus on this one will definitely be the fish. I haven't thought too much about the plants, so if you have any ideas of plants that would work well and be simple to keep, I'd appreciate it.

WATER:
My tap water is about 6.6 Ph once it sits for a day. The GH is 3 and the KH is either 0 or 1. One drop from the test kit (API) turns the water yellow, so I don't know if that means 1 degree or 0, but whichever- it should work well for rams. I'll treat it with Seachem Prime and nothing else. That's the plan anyway-

FISH:
8 German Blue Rams to start with, and after they pair up, I'll drop it to 2 pairs. I expect the hardscape and plants to provide enough cover to allow 2 pair to coexist peacefully in that tank.
I will also add 6 - 12 green neon tetras. This one I'm still debating- there are only a few tetras that I have found that folks say will live happily in 82 degree water (27.7 C). Any suggestions for something other than the green neons? I also saw that rummynose tetras might work, but I have about 25 of them in my 75 gallon tank. Emporer tetras also might be a good option. I'm not dead set on tetras either but I haven't bothered to investigate other tank mates that might work in that heated water. Suggestions appreciated.

I'm thinking I'll just get the fish from Dan's Fish. I have never had anything from them that didn't thrive, so I think it's the safest bet. I'm afraid to get them at LFS because I've read that the ones you buy that are mass bred overseas tend to be not as well taken care of- read something about breeders giving them hormones or something that makes the colors pop but just hides the otherwise poor health.

Anyone have experience getting rams or other similar fish from another source that is trustworthy?

I will ask at the club, but I don't think anyone at our club is breeding the German Blue Rams.

Anyway, that's the plan for now. I did a lot of thinking about this tank, since it's the last one I'll build from scratch. I wanted to make sure I do something I'll enjoy for a long time. I looked hard at puffers- both pea puffers and the larger ones - I debated between the pea puffers and the spotted congo puffers, but I just had a weird feeling. I had decided against rams because of the high temperature, but when my mind went back to them, I felt a very settled feeling about it- it was weird. I knew at that point that I've been wanting to do these for a long time and this is it.

I hope to breed them over time and do have a couple of 10 gallon tanks I could use temporarily to give it a shot, but I'm not putting much expectations on it. The only fish I've successfully bred have mostly been accidents: kribensis (OMG like gangbusters!), endlers (if they are alive, they're having babies), mollies (this one was unique because it happened in a tank full of predators), and last, but certainly not least, butterfly goodeids. I have a GABILLION of those in a 29 gallon tank. I desperately need to get rid of some.

BTW- if anyone wants some butterfly goodeids, please let me know. If you're willing to cover shipping, I'll send you as many as you want (US only)

It'll be a couple of weeks before I can get started in earnest- I'll post some pictures once I get it going. Any tips on stuff I can do to improve chances of successful happy fish will be appreciated.

 

[GaryE]

If I were keeping rams again, I'd use two heaters. It's good back up, and they seem to last longer. I don't know what ambient room temperatures are over the year where you are. Here, a heater for rams or discus gets a workout.

I'm of two, or three minds about rams. The best ones I ever had were wild caughts. They were colourful, but not like linebred German blues. What they lacked was made up for by behaviour - they were little spark plugs. I have never had German rams as energetic and feisty as those great little fish. But wilds cost more and take some looking to get, in a short season.

The fish originate in extreme waters - soft and hot. They remain sensitive to bacteria, even after many generations of selective breeding. If you get healthy ones and do the required water changes, etc, they can be hardy. I've bred fish considered way harder, but never rams. They're one of those fish for me. But I have had them live long lives in my tanks a few times. They can be tough(ish).

How do you get healthy ones? I think it's safe to say the chain stores are out. It takes luck as extreme as a Venezuelan Llanos stream to get good ones with the conditions they offer. But even with the best of stores, this species suffers in shipping. If you have a decent local store run by aquarists with knowledge, your chances are better. You can see them to choose. You can also look for signs of inbreeding with German rams, given that they've been line bred for a long time, and if they come from Singapore farms, they've been churned out like burgers.

Dan's has a good reputation, and you need to trust the person who chooses when you buy sight unseen. If I were after rams in the US and didn't know a club breeder, I'd go for Dan's or Wet Spot.

Your conditions sound right to me (as a guy who can't breed the ^%^%& things), so it should be a good tank.

If it's high enough up for a good view, I'd get a shoal of surface hugging hatchets - any species. Cardinals, rummys, and a few rare and expensive tetras will do well in warm water. I decided to look for others, and AI steered me very wrong. If you are researching, search characins, not tetras. AI has dumbed down the 'tetra' searches to the point of their being idiotic.

 

[MuddyWaters]

If I were keeping rams again, I'd use two heaters. It's good back up, and they seem to last longer. I don't know what ambient room temperatures are over the year where you are. Here, a heater for rams or discus gets a workout.

I'm of two, or three minds about rams. The best ones I ever had were wild caughts. They were colourful, but not like linebred German blues. What they lacked was made up for by behaviour - they were little spark plugs. I have never had German rams as energetic and feisty as those great little fish. But wilds cost more and take some looking to get, in a short season.

The fish originate in extreme waters - soft and hot. They remain sensitive to bacteria, even after many generations of selective breeding. If you get healthy ones and do the required water changes, etc, they can be hardy. I've bred fish considered way harder, but never rams. They're one of those fish for me. But I have had them live long lives in my tanks a few times. They can be tough(ish).

How do you get healthy ones? I think it's safe to say the chain stores are out. It takes luck as extreme as a Venezuelan Llanos stream to get good ones with the conditions they offer. But even with the best of stores, this species suffers in shipping. If you have a decent local store run by aquarists with knowledge, your chances are better. You can see them to choose. You can also look for signs of inbreeding with German rams, given that they've been line bred for a long time, and if they come from Singapore farms, they've been churned out like burgers.

Dan's has a good reputation, and you need to trust the person who chooses when you buy sight unseen. If I were after rams in the US and didn't know a club breeder, I'd go for Dan's or Wet Spot.

Your conditions sound right to me (as a guy who can't breed the ^%^%& things), so it should be a good tank.

If it's high enough up for a good view, I'd get a shoal of surface hugging hatchets - any species. Cardinals, rummys, and a few rare and expensive tetras will do well in warm water. I decided to look for others, and AI steered me very wrong. If you are researching, search characins, not tetras. AI has dumbed down the 'tetra' searches to the point of their being idiotic.

Thanks, Gary! You know, I didn't think about the hatchets! I've got 3 in my 75 gallon that I love! (Had 6, but it dwindled to 3- those are right at 1.5 yrs now). Good idea.

I will search for characins also...I always just search tetra.

I live in Georgia, so the climate is warm most of the year, but my house is kept cool, so the heaters will still put some work in. . I will go for 2 of them.

I also think I will look around for some wild caught. I found a YouTube video from a guy who said he expected to have a hard time breeding rams and found them to be easy. Might see if I can contact him and get some of his. . Maybe he has THE ONES that breed LOL

 

[GaryE]

It's funny. I had a friend who bred german Blue rams like popcorn. He churned them out. Meanwhile, I was churning out Apistogramma back then, and he couldn't get a single spawn from any Apisto species. We both kept the same killies, trading back and forth, and both did well. I passed him breeding pairs of my cichlids, and he passed me breeding rams. No luck either way. We never cracked that dwarf Cichlid conundrum. I guess some of us have different 'touches', and I hope you've got one for rams.

With a good lid, hatchets are incredible fish that like conditions warm. I don't generally have heaters in my tanks now as I keep lower temp tropicals, but I would plug in a heater if I could get good hatchets around here.

 

[anewbie]

Get rid of the pea size gravel or make sure there is a large area of very fine gravel as the rams (if they breed) will want to dig a pit for their wrigglers though initial spawning will be on hardscape usually drift wood.
-
@ 82 there there is an interesting fish with common name galaxy oto that likes warm temperature - if you are not breeding a nice group of cardinals.

While each individual fish is different the chances of 8 mix sex rams coexisting in a 40b is slim to none once they are sexually mature.

 

[MuddyWaters]

Get rid of the pea size gravel or make sure there is a large area of very fine gravel as the rams (if they breed) will want to dig a pit for their wrigglers though initial spawning will be on hardscape usually drift wood.
-
@ 82 there there is an interesting fish with common name galaxy oto that likes warm temperature - if you are not breeding a nice group of cardinals.

While each individual fish is different the chances of 8 mix sex rams coexisting in a 40b is slim to none once they are sexually mature.

thanks for the tip on the gravel- I will make sure there is a lot of sand in there too.

BTW I won't be keeping 8 in there- I want 8 to ensure I get 2 pair- the others will be sold at my club auction once they pair off. That's the idea anyway- I have to find some juvenile rams from a hobbyist breeder. a friend at my favorite LFS told me not to buy them from any store- get them from a breeder- she said there's a huge difference, almost like they're not the same fish. I'll take that advice if I can.

 

[MuddyWaters]

Quick update: I ended up getting 1 heater- it was almost $100- it's one of those titanium ones. I may get another as a back up, but couldn't bring myself to buy more than one that day.

Also- I've been out of town and other stuff, so haven't had a chance to work on it, but plan to this weekend- I figure I'll get the tank going and maybe put some dither fish in there while I figure out where I can find juvenile rams raised by a hobbyist.

 

[anewbie]

thanks for the tip on the gravel- I will make sure there is a lot of sand in there too.

BTW I won't be keeping 8 in there- I want 8 to ensure I get 2 pair- the others will be sold at my club auction once they pair off. That's the idea anyway- I have to find some juvenile rams from a hobbyist breeder. a friend at my favorite LFS told me not to buy them from any store- get them from a breeder- she said there's a huge difference, almost like they're not the same fish. I'll take that advice if I can.

Heater shouldn't cost $100 unless prices have doubled the past year - can you link the model ?

Rams do form pairs but a 40b is probably not large enough for 2 pairs though it depends heavily on individual fishes. Hobbist rams tend to be better if the frys are left with parents and fed correctly so it depends on the hobbist. However genetically they are likely as inbred as domestic. You can get wild caught gbr but they will be less intense in colouring but better behaved.

 

[GaryE]

. You can get wild caught gbr but they will be less intense in colouring but better behaved.

This is not exact - German Blue Rams (GBR) are a domestic creation, a sport developed by German aquarist breeders way back when. There are no wild rams in Germany, or tropical savannahs in Munich. It's a Venezuelan and Colombian species - a wee bit south of even southern Germany.

While we're looking at trade names like the GBR, the Genus of these fish is Mikrogeophagus - in English micro eartheater. That's why sand is far better than gravel for them, as they are sifters. @anewbie 's advice on changing the substrate is dead on. They'll pick over pebbles, but I suspect for them, such tanks seem like hard times have come. They like to take in sand and expel it after the specialized structures of their mouths, gills and throats have removed the food attached. They aren't as obvious eartheaters as the larger Geophagus group are, but they are part of that grouping.

You could add sand over the gravel, but it'll keep moving with the behaviour of these fish.

 

[anewbie]

This is not exact - German Blue Rams (GBR) are a domestic creation, a sport developed by German aquarist breeders way back when. There are no wild rams in Germany, or tropical savannahs in Munich. It's a Venezuelan and Colombian species - a wee bit south of even southern Germany.

While we're looking at trade names like the GBR, the Genus of these fish is Mikrogeophagus - in English micro eartheater. That's why sand is far better than gravel for them, as they are sifters. @anewbie 's advice on changing the substrate is dead on. They'll pick over pebbles, but I suspect for them, such tanks seem like hard times have come. They like to take in sand and expel it after the specialized structures of their mouths, gills and throats have removed the food attached. They aren't as obvious eartheaters as the larger Geophagus group are, but they are part of that grouping.

You could add sand over the gravel, but it'll keep moving with the behaviour of these fish.

Fine Fine you can get wild caught Mikrogeophagus ramirezi - are you happy Gary?

 

[gwand]

I like the Los Angeles Rams. But the lineman are too big for my tanks!

 

[MuddyWaters]

This is not exact - German Blue Rams (GBR) are a domestic creation, a sport developed by German aquarist breeders way back when. There are no wild rams in Germany, or tropical savannahs in Munich. It's a Venezuelan and Colombian species - a wee bit south of even southern Germany.

While we're looking at trade names like the GBR, the Genus of these fish is Mikrogeophagus - in English micro eartheater. That's why sand is far better than gravel for them, as they are sifters. @anewbie 's advice on changing the substrate is dead on. They'll pick over pebbles, but I suspect for them, such tanks seem like hard times have come. They like to take in sand and expel it after the specialized structures of their mouths, gills and throats have removed the food attached. They aren't as obvious eartheaters as the larger Geophagus group are, but they are part of that grouping.

You could add sand over the gravel, but it'll keep moving with the behaviour of these fish.

Thanks, Gary- I'll return the gravel and get sand.

 

[MuddyWaters]

Heater shouldn't cost $100 unless prices have doubled the past year - can you link the model ?

Rams do form pairs but a 40b is probably not large enough for 2 pairs though it depends heavily on individual fishes. Hobbist rams tend to be better if the frys are left with parents and fed correctly so it depends on the hobbist. However genetically they are likely as inbred as domestic. You can get wild caught gbr but they will be less intense in colouring but better behaved.

Amazon.com

Aqyatop- I was surprised at the price, but those titanium ones are supposed to last forever

 

[anewbie]

Amazon.com

Aqyatop- I was surprised at the price, but those titanium ones are supposed to last forever

They don't last any longer than non titanium heaters; i know nothing about this brand so won't comment on it but i have a bunch of glass and titanium heaters and they can all fail. Most of my recent failures have been in the electronic that measure temperature (which is old technology and should never fail but everyone is cutting corners these days).

I was going to say maybe it has a good warranty but the page description sez no warranty. Anyway you should have some alternative method to measure temperature (i use those strips similar to this):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01203HWPA

But i also have an expensive ec meter that measures the temp. It doesn't hurt to verify things are correct now and then - if it fails to keep the tank warm that is usually less imperative then if it gets 'stuck' on either due to faulty meter or whatever. Of course with blue rams there is less tolerance on the 'cold' side of things than many other species.

 

[MuddyWaters]

Hey all- update:

I've had the tank going for a couple of weeks. I set it up and planted it. Gave it a week or so with that. Then I got some cardinal tetra and a few silver hatchet fish. I put 2 sponge filters from a seasoned tank in there to provide the bio-bacteria while the permanent filter grows it.

It has gone very well for the most part.

I did have a flow problem with the filter- The filter is a Fluval FX4- I added a spray bar to tone down the flow. I pointed it up and toward the front of the tank. Even with the upward angle, it blew all the sand out of the front and all over the tank LOL. So, I switched it to point up and to the back of the tank, and I added a thin piece of sponge at the top edge to keep further diffuse the flow. It works great now.

The fish are very happy- I got them from Aqua-Huna. I usually get fish from Dan's but I've gotten them at AquaHuna before and had success, so I thought I'd try to save a bit of money. So far so good.

At the club meeting week before last, there were tons of pretty much full grown angel fish- I ended up getting 2 for $5 each. I initially put one in this tank and another elsewhere, but the other one was not happy in that other tank (never left the back corner) so I moved him to this one. He's still kind of skittish, but the other one (you can see him in the pic) is very happy and very interactive, so that is cool.

Oh- I also ended up getting a few more cardinals and some rummy nose tetra at the club meeting. I never see those at our club- the guy who sold them went to Colombia last summer and these were some of his haul. Lucky me! Anyway, 3 of the rummynose which were meant for another tank ended up in this one. I tried to separate the cardinals and rummynose from the quarantine tank, but obviously I missed on 3 of them LOL. I'll probably move them, but they're fine for now.

Here's the one issue that's bugging me: I bought one of those Inkbird temp monitors for the heaters because I'm keeping the temp about 82 F (28 C) and it makes me nervous, so i bought this thing to make sure the heaters wouldn't overheat the tank. Well, I've had nothing but trouble with it. I've checked online and there are a few things I need to check, but it's not working well- it will shut off the power to the heater when the water temp does not go high enough to warrant that, etc. I think the problem is ME, but will have to work on it.

NEXT: I ordered 8 German Rams from Dan's fish. I tried to find some locally from a hobbyist, but couldn't find anyone currently breeding them - got a lot of - "yeah I used to do those all the time," but nobody doing it now. Dan gets his from a hobbyist and not a huge breeder, so I feel good about them. I asked them to send me the youngest they have. Hoping to get a couple of pairs out of them and then take the rest to the club. Super excited!