For All Those Who Want A Squid

[Lynden]

Anemones need better water than octopi, FYI. So i would not worry too much about the water. Especially if you cycle it for a long time. Octopi are incredibly cool, maybe you could post some pictures.


-Good luck -Lynden

 

[Riley]

yeah but it will be a pain trying to simulate the on going current. And it will be a pain in the ass having to block every whole in the lid so that it won't excape

 

[andywg]

That and if you are really lucky it may live for 24 months, though almost certainly less.

And I would be very wary of them needing less clean water than anemones, since anemones do not interact with water in the same way as octupi.

 

[Navarre]

Octopus and anenomes are big bags of water. the quality of the water will dictate the health of these creatures. Octupus need perfect water if they are to survive.

They also need escape proof tanks and the very smallest hole will be enough for them to escpe. Powerheads need gaurding and this is practically impossible or they are in danger of getting churned to pieces.

Doont expect an octopus/squid or cuttlefish to live much longer than 6months to 1 year. they live probably 2 years in the wild at best. the chances are that the ones you get will be at least 6 months old or higher so that is nearly half their life.

Lovely creatures to behold but simply too short lived, too specialised to even consider IMO

 

[Lynden]

Even the 8 foot pacific octopus only lives about two years. Its sad that such a magnificent animal is deprived of a long life. An animal like an anole gets to live at least 5... not that i am against lizards, its just that octopi should get to live at least 10 in my opinion, since the octo is exponentially smarter than all those lucky vertebrates that get a long life.


Its a proven fact that a 10'' octopus can squeeze through a hole less than 1''. This is one reason why i dont keep them

 

[J-Money]

I wuz at the LPS a couple of days ago getting some cleaner shrimp and in one tank they had a cuttle fish and in another they had an octopus. The octopus was in a cup, i guess they didn't want him getting into the tanks next to him and eating all the stock

 

[Dragonscales]

They might be in for a suprise if they think a cup is going to hold an octopus Unless it is weighted down it will get out eventually and then they'll wish they hadn't been so stupid and made the tank octo-proof.

Regardless of which, I think it is pretty cruel and a good indication that the people there don't know much about fishkeeping or they just don't care. The simple fact that the water in the cup won't be very oxygenated and full of waste after a while due to it's seperation from the rest of the tank and therefore poor (if any) water flow would be enough to deter most fishkeepers to begin with. Not to mention that it's bad enough keeping a betta in a cup, let alone a ceph.

 

[J-Money]

the cup had a lid on it and tiny holes drilled in it (i'm guessing i didn't actually look that close)

 

[squall7733]

There are alot of missunderstood facts about octopus floating around. They arnt very hard to maintain at all, as long as your tank is fully cyled and you use RO/DI water. There are things you have to watch out for keeping a species only tank. Like with an octopus you wouldnt be able to keep anythign else, can not use undergravel filters or rough substrate, as an octopus will dig and play with the undergravel filter, lifting it up or whatever it decides to do with it, and rough substrate can potentialy cut his soft tentacles. Must secure all holes, intake and outtake with netting or duct tape. Yes gool ol duct tape! Its really not that hard to keep teh tank secure, just a little common sense. They are very capable of opening the lids themselves so a brick on the lid is a good idea.

There are lots of other little things, but its really not that difficult. Octopus keeping shouldnt be viewed so difficultly.

But alas, it is a sad thing when an octopus passes on. They only live for 12-16 months. If you have a female and the end of its life it will make a large den and lay its eggs, and proceede to constantly guard them and never eat. Usualy the eggs will hatch and the female will die, or if the eggs are not fertilzed they just wont hatch. Sometimes you get lucky as the female will resume feeding again after this stage, but she wont have long to live after that. In most cases you really have to watch her die and know you cant do anything to stop it, its natural.

www.tonmo.com has lots of information for octopi keeping.

 

[bunjiweb]

I'd like to see you prove that reef squid are more intelligent than chimps. Chimps have been studied greatly and have very interesting social groups. They have been observed using basic tools, and sharpening bits of rock or twig to use for different purposes. It has also been proven that they have a tribal style society.....

I'd be very surprised if anyone could properly prove that squid are more intelligent than chimps, and alot of other members of the primate family.

Also what about dolphins? They are extremely intelligent.

Ben

 

[squall7733]

I'd argue that chimps and cephs are pretty closely intelligent.

I'm positive they are smarter then dolphins. With a dolphin you have to teach it to do tricks, jump out of the water on command or whatever else they show you at sea world, although they are very smart. With a ceph, if you throw a closed jar with a fidler crab inside into the water, you dont have to teach the ceph how to open the jar, he'll just figure it out on his own. I dought a monkey could do that. Remember monkeys are the ones who have problems getting bananas out of jars because they wont let go of it.

I think its all the same really, its hard to say what animal is smarter then the other, people who say cephs are the most intelligent animal on earth usualy say that because they love cephs and are biased Of course people who love chimps say the same thing.

My octopus is my underwater monkey.

 

[andywg]

But do the squid naturally use the environment to hunt, like having group all attack a bank at the same time to drive the fish onto it and then eat the fish that are left struggling on the bank before sliding back and doing it again (as Dolphins have been observed doing in the Florida area).

The teamworking skills and problem solving nature of dolphins is far more than jumping out of a pond at seaworld to hit a ball on a stick.

Chimps are also the creatures that would soon learn that a rock could smash a jar, and then the younger ones would learn off of the older ones indicating a learning society. A chimpanzee has even learnt to speak using a language called Yerkish, based on Chinese Lexigrams (Craighead-George, 1985).

The chimp comunicated via a keyboard and selected the appropriate lexigrams in the correct syntax. This, combined with a desire to learn new lexigrams not originally in the computer led to Rumbaughs conclusion (in 1984) that apes learn language in a meaningful way.

It may be that it is just easier to perform these sort of experiments on primates, but for now, I am far more impressed with the intelligence skills of primates than cephs.

Andy

 

[Dragonscales]

I agree with cephs being extremely intelligent, especially for invertebrates, a group often thought of as primitive and rather stupid as far as intellect goes.

Cephalopods do have alot going for them as far as evolution is concerned, they have keen eyesight (both near and far), their limbs are extremely dexterous as well as sensitive, they also have a form of comunication with one another (it is still unknown how basic or advanced their communication skills are as yet), they are adaptable and inhabit many different enviroments and they have a well developed brain that is capable of learning as well as problem solving. They are also highly curious animals.

On the other side of the coin, they have alot of hurdles they would need to overcome to become a dominant species imo. Firstly they would need to lengthen their lifespan to make the most of their ability to learn, etc as well as allow for them to live past breeding and possibly develop maternal instincts that goes past simple egg guarding. Developing these sorts of instincts would allow a female ceph to teach her offspring and give them a headstart to life and could possibly reduce agression towards other members of it's species by making the path to family bonding possible. After evolving to form family bonds, teamwork between groups is also a possibility (this is already seen to a degree in some cephs, squid for instance shoal). I personally think that the octopus would be the best contender out of all the cephs to evolve into a dominant lifeform if it could get over it's short lifespan and it's agression towards other members of it's species. It has all the other advantages of other cephs plus a body which allows for more complex interactions with it's surroundings, such as the ability to exit water for short periods (not that I believe an animal would strictly have to be landbased to become sentient, etc, I'm just pointing out their advantages over other cephs as well as their increased flexibility and adaptability), manipulate their bodies alot more than say squid, etc.

Of course, this is all merely speculation and my own personal thoughts, there are a few other points I could think of but those are the main pros and cons I think. As for whether they are more intelligent than apes or dolphins, I don't think anybody can really answer that at this time. Alot more study has gone into dolphins and apes than has ever gone into cephs and it's only recently that we are even starting to learn more about them and their abilities. It's been shown that they clearly are able to distinguish and remember colours and shapes from one another, which is the most basic skill needed to learn to communicate (in a non-verbal manner anyhow) but as for how far they are able to use this skill has yet to be determined. Until more research has been conducted I don't think it is really fair to rule them out and I personally believe they are a good contender for at least the top five on the intelligence list, only time will tell I guess. To make a judgement one way or the other though isn't really practical (and would probably warrent being placed a few steps down the intelligence ladder ourselves) until more research has been done. I do believe that the end results would be interesting to say the least though.

 

[Lynden]

Actually, reef squid are very social and do, in fact, have a complex language with over 100 different colour patterns which can be combined to make sentences. I have very different views on life and genetic patterns, and the intelligence of animals.


One very obvious point is that chimpanzees are alot like humans as far as body structure goes. We make tests for ourselves and try them on chimps to rate their intelligence. The invetebrate phylum cephalopods is very different from any vertebrates, and therefore we cannot test them as easily as we can chimps. Many animals, including humans, will adopt the language of the species they are raised with. That explains why humans can learn so many different languages, like japanese, spanish, english, ect. There have even been reports of humans, who have been neglected by their parents and thrown outside, that have learned the language of dogs. My theory is that the chimps learning language is simply their way of adapting to their surroundings. Therefore, chimps are no more intelligent than many other animals such as dolphins, their ability to learn is simply enhanced. When you learn something, you can form your own theories on what might happen to something when you do something to it.


Also, vertebrates have spent alot of their "evolutionary points" on developing vertebrae, while invertebrates can use these to highten intelligence and other areas. For instance, many people do not relize how much smarter there invertebrates are than their fish. I have seen coral-banded shrimp and ghost shrimp that act vastly smarter than their vertebrate friends.


Octopi learn very rapidly how to open jars and such. Chimps and Dolphins must be taught how to do things as such. I think that invertebrates as a whole are smarter than vertebrates as a whole. For instance, snails, an animal often thought as primitive and dumb, have been observed doing some very intelligent things. For instance, a snail will never try to get through a hole bigger than its shell. They measure the diameter of the hole and their shell before they try to go through it.


Dolphins occasionally beach themselves doing the bank thing. Also, "lower" vertebrates such as sailfin marlins and lionfish have excellent teamwork skills, like squid. Also, fish such as arrowanas will learn from other fish, like if a certain food is edible. I will someday prove my theories.
I hope you all remember me and this thread for a long time


We have a long ways to go before we unlock life's great mysteries. Some say they would be better off as just mysteries.

-Lynden

 

[andywg]

I hate to come down a bit harsh, but a lot of what you have written is pure fiction.

I have never heard of dogs even having a language, let alone humans learning it (outside of the jungle book, anyway).

Your point about adapting to surroundings could be used on everyone and everything. You could say that humans learning to farm was just them adapting, and the onset of civilisation was too. By that line of thinking, despite man's ability to control his surroundings and enter space, we still aren't as clever as an octupus because our mum told us to open a jam jar.

And where do you get the idea of "evolutionary points". Life is not some role playing game. Real evolution is not like pokemon. The vertebrae were developed and sustained because it gave those with them a significant advantage over rivals without.

How have your shrimp acted more intelligently than the verts? Have they began debating the finer points of Voltaire? Or started work on proving string theory? Your point about octopi learning for themselves to open jars whereas chimps are taught...That is a huge part of many ideas of intelligence, the ability to watch and copy and then remember and repeat, rather than just hit and miss as to whether they do it or not.

The biggest problem when trying to show intelligence is the inherent nature of humans to anthropomorphise the subject they are viewing. We see the outcome and assume that it was planned by the subject rather than the repetition. I am sure that there are some amazing things that inverts and cephs and the like are capable of, but I would severely doubt that they will be proved to be on a level of intelligence close to that of chimps or dolphins, particuliarly the ability to utilise tools by chimps, or even birds.