Fluval Edge, No Cycle.....
- Thread starter MarcoPereira
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A base of dried leaves maybe. I'd suggest water lettuce for floating plants but I suspect it would be less than beneficial to your existing plants. Putting a bag of peat in your filter would make your PH more "Amazonish and tint the water.MarcoPereira said:
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MarcoPereira
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The rocks are petrified wood. Tested them with vinegar and no fizzing....could they still be the issue? I think it is the wood I have in there. One piece is manzanita I think, twisted and thin, the other is malaysian bogwood, very dark and dense.cynic said:
Munroco said:
I would love to do that but since Ph gets already to low I think that adding leaves and peat may be pushing it in such a small space. The Ph is now higher because I added bi carb soda...to allow cycle to start as water may have been to acicic to allow BB to do their thing. I am keeping water at 7.5 - 7.8 at the moment.
I just came to this thread, having posted in your other (Marco), and would add a couple things here along the lines of what I posted in the other thread (about the pH, etc). I never "cycle" fish tanks. I use plants (fast growers, like floating, are ideal for this) to "silent cycle" as lockman referenced. I have used a bacterial supplement a couple times as an added precaution, and Stability is the one I have used and never had issues. Ammonia and nitrite have never been above zero in any of my tanks during the initial start-up.
It is true that a low pH can hamper and even prevent "cycling," but at the same time one must understand that it is next to impossible to harm the fish in this situation. Ammonia changes to ammonium which is basically harmless. Here is an excerpt from an article I authored for another site that will explain this in general terms.
The pH has a direct effect on nitrifying bacteria. These bacteria operate at close to 100% effectiveness at a pH of 8.3, and this level of efficiency decreases as the pH lowers. At pH 7.0 efficiency is only 50%, at 6.5 only 30%, and at 6.0 only 10%. Below 6.0 the bacteria enter a state of dormancy and cease functioning. [5] Fortunately, in acidic water (pH below 7.0) ammonia automatically ionizes into ammonium which is basically harmless. And since nitrite will not be produced when the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria are in “hibernation,” this decrease in their effectiveness poses no immediate danger to the fish and other life forms.
Temperature also affects the rate of growth of nitrifying bacteria. It will be optimal at a temperature between 25 and 30C/77 and 86F. At a temperature of 18C/64F it will be 50%. Above 35C/95F the bacteria has extreme difficulty. At both 0C/32F (freezing) and 100C/212F (boiling) the bacteria die.
Scientific studies have also now proven that Nitrospira are inhibited and cannot multiply in water that contains significant concentrations of ammonia, and evidence exists to suggest that existing populations of Nitrospira actually become dormant when ammonia is present in high concentrations. Kim et al. (2006) determined that with an active ammonia [NH3] level of 0.7 mg/l (=ppm) Nitrospira bacteria experienced a decrease of 50% effectiveness, resulting in an accumulation of nitrite.
As I suggested in the other thread, you won't have to worry about the pH with soft water fish. You can create a blackwater habitat with lots of wood and branches, dried leaves, and/or peat. I wouldn't bother about peat as it is expensive, and dried leaves work very well. I use oak leaves, but maple and similar hardwoods can also be used. I'll just attach a photo of my 29g which is about as close to an Amazonian blackwater habitat as you can get, though the water is not too tinted; my weekly 60% water changes prevent this. Last time I tested pH it was at 5 (or possibly below, kit only reads down to 5). There is a good accumulation of organics in this tank too, as there are 64 fish and I leave all but the very front of the substrate alone.
Byron.
It is true that a low pH can hamper and even prevent "cycling," but at the same time one must understand that it is next to impossible to harm the fish in this situation. Ammonia changes to ammonium which is basically harmless. Here is an excerpt from an article I authored for another site that will explain this in general terms.
The pH has a direct effect on nitrifying bacteria. These bacteria operate at close to 100% effectiveness at a pH of 8.3, and this level of efficiency decreases as the pH lowers. At pH 7.0 efficiency is only 50%, at 6.5 only 30%, and at 6.0 only 10%. Below 6.0 the bacteria enter a state of dormancy and cease functioning. [5] Fortunately, in acidic water (pH below 7.0) ammonia automatically ionizes into ammonium which is basically harmless. And since nitrite will not be produced when the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria are in “hibernation,” this decrease in their effectiveness poses no immediate danger to the fish and other life forms.
Temperature also affects the rate of growth of nitrifying bacteria. It will be optimal at a temperature between 25 and 30C/77 and 86F. At a temperature of 18C/64F it will be 50%. Above 35C/95F the bacteria has extreme difficulty. At both 0C/32F (freezing) and 100C/212F (boiling) the bacteria die.
Scientific studies have also now proven that Nitrospira are inhibited and cannot multiply in water that contains significant concentrations of ammonia, and evidence exists to suggest that existing populations of Nitrospira actually become dormant when ammonia is present in high concentrations. Kim et al. (2006) determined that with an active ammonia [NH3] level of 0.7 mg/l (=ppm) Nitrospira bacteria experienced a decrease of 50% effectiveness, resulting in an accumulation of nitrite.
As I suggested in the other thread, you won't have to worry about the pH with soft water fish. You can create a blackwater habitat with lots of wood and branches, dried leaves, and/or peat. I wouldn't bother about peat as it is expensive, and dried leaves work very well. I use oak leaves, but maple and similar hardwoods can also be used. I'll just attach a photo of my 29g which is about as close to an Amazonian blackwater habitat as you can get, though the water is not too tinted; my weekly 60% water changes prevent this. Last time I tested pH it was at 5 (or possibly below, kit only reads down to 5). There is a good accumulation of organics in this tank too, as there are 64 fish and I leave all but the very front of the substrate alone.
Byron.
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The formula for Ammonia is NH3. Urea is two NH2 molecules attached to a carobon monoxide molecule and has a formula of CO 2(NH2). So Urea is very close to ammonia. When urea oxidizes it is converted to one carbon dioxide molecule and 2 Ammonia molecules. The oxidation process can be triggered by UV light, radiation, or heat. Bacteria can also oxidize urea to Ammonia. So overall Urea is packed with Ammonia. Urea is the primary source of ammonia in an aquarium.
By the way I have been using plants in my aquarium to keep nitrogen levels low. Ammonia and nitrite are always zero. I only see nitrate if the plant are not growing or if I add a nitrogen fertilizer to my aquarium.
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MarcoPereira
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Byron said:
My God Byron! what a stunning aquarium! exactly the type that I love and would love to re create...alas, only a humble beginner taking humble steps...
Not sure if this is good news or just not so important, but tonight I did a tank test and ammonia has dropped to just under 1ppm and now have nitrite showing at about 0.25 or slightly under....seems that bacteria are taking hold...did not test for nitrate as am sure early days yet for things to be moving along.
I will not add any more bicarb and will allow nature to take it's course as it seems to know best in these cases.
Have re thought the aquascaping and will follow your advice. Have been given a beautiful piece of Manzanita wood which I will make look like it has just "fallen" in the tank along with beautiful basalt rocks that were obviously from a river bed. Will keep the sand as you mentioned and will have maybe just one species of plant, mini jungle Val, love the vertical look of that plant.
Again, I can not thank you enough for the time you take to share your vast knowledge and experience, it makes a world of difference in my first tentative steps....
I would not add any form of ammonia. With water changes and the establishment of the nitrifying bacteria, this should level out. Your plants will then take up the ammonia/ammonium and when this all settles you can add the first fish.
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MarcoPereira
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Thanks Byron. So, in your opinion, does that mean I should add livestock as soon as I notice that the ammonia I added is at 0 ppm? or hold out a lot longer?Byron said:
MarcoPereira said:
Ammonia and nitrite must both test zero, and for a few consecutive days, before adding fish. But I would do some major water changes too, once this occurs. This is not going to kill the bacteria; when "food" is not available, they go into a sort of hibernation or dormancy. The water changes will ensure there is none of the ammonia (and nitrite) left in the water as these will harm fish.
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MarcoPereira
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Byron said:
Ammonia and nitrite must both test zero, and for a few consecutive days, before adding fish. But I would do some major water changes too, once this occurs. This is not going to kill the bacteria; when "food" is not available, they go into a sort of hibernation or dormancy. The water changes will ensure there is none of the ammonia (and nitrite) left in the water as these will harm fish.
Ok, now, to sound like a complete novice... I just re did the aquascape and took Fluttermoth's and your advice and put in extra wood and changed stones for more contrast...I think it looks better and we are happier with it here. All we need to do is add leaf litter later on.
In regards to what to do next Byron, just re filled the tank and added a cap of stability. Should I just leave it alone now to do it's thing and adjust itself to it's desired Ph and add no further addition of "stinky ammonia mix" I concocted with salmon piece? if I add nothing, will bacteria in filter die?
Sorry for all the boring questions but now I am a tad confused...
What are the necessary steps going further in trying to cycle this tank?
Thank you again and added a new photo for your and everyone's critique.
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That looks very nice. Do not add any ammonia; as I mentioned previously, the bacteria will not all die. As for the pH, it may lower slightly now, but only when you have fish present will the biological system begin to stabilize and that will occur over a period of several months. You will likely need some food for the plants, especially as you have very soft water. A complete or comprehensive liquid additive is all you need. I have been using Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium for several years now. They make several products under the "Flourish" name but this one is complete and all you really need here. The Stability can't hurt, but I would not use more until fish are present.
Byron.
Byron.
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MarcoPereira
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Byron said:
Well, at the risk of looking like an utter fool, guess what I did? ha ha ha...yes, I added a dash of the ammonia mixture. Woke up this morning to what can only be decribed as a "bowl of cereal"! yes, very milky in there.
I will now just let the tank do it's thing and wait for ammonia to be processed and down to zero. Should I do water change at all moving forward? and, when should I be adding first fish/shrimp to the tank? that is the part that confuses me...
Will definately get the Seachem Flourish, was thinking about it just a few days ago. Will this cause algae blooms though?
Thank you for your patience, am bound to stuff up somewhere along the line. And yes, also thank you for your critique, we like it better now but I tell you...cleaning it will be interesting with all that wood in the way....
Well, I am an aquarist who will never add ammonia to my tanks, but I accept that others do to "cycle." But we have been discussing silent cycle here, and I still would not add ammonia. This has now prolonged things a bit. Do water changes to get rid of it.
The first fish/shrimp can go in once you have the water clear, and ammonia and nitrite test zero. I would test over a few days to be certain these are zero consistently. Do not add any fish if either reads above zero. [What fish are intended? Some are better than others, not here because of cycling but just the difference between a biologically new and an established aquarium.]
Too much plant fertilizer can cause algae issues, just as too little can, or too much or too little light. However, dosing just the once per week should not cause issues. Once you have fish producing organics, nutrients will obviously increase. You have to experiment a bit to get the balance of light/nutrients. There is no specific rule because each aquarium is biologically unique. This is a 46 litre (= 12 gallons), correct? Roughly 1/4 of a teaspoon of Flourish Comp is all you need, once a week. I took Seachem's advice and started adding mine the day following the water change (to avoid the conditioner detoxifying certain minerals) and I think it is better.
"Cleaning" should not involve much beyond water changes. I vacuum over, sometimes slightly into, the sand in open areas, but no where else. You want organics to settle into the substrate, both to provide nutrients (this is your primary source of CO2 for the plants, along with some ammonia (nitrogen) and others) and to have a complete nitrogen cycle which includes de-nitrification as well as nitrification. The glass inside may need cleaning during the water change; I tend to do mine every week even though I see nothing, because algae will readily occur in the biofilm on surfaces.
Byron.
The first fish/shrimp can go in once you have the water clear, and ammonia and nitrite test zero. I would test over a few days to be certain these are zero consistently. Do not add any fish if either reads above zero. [What fish are intended? Some are better than others, not here because of cycling but just the difference between a biologically new and an established aquarium.]
Too much plant fertilizer can cause algae issues, just as too little can, or too much or too little light. However, dosing just the once per week should not cause issues. Once you have fish producing organics, nutrients will obviously increase. You have to experiment a bit to get the balance of light/nutrients. There is no specific rule because each aquarium is biologically unique. This is a 46 litre (= 12 gallons), correct? Roughly 1/4 of a teaspoon of Flourish Comp is all you need, once a week. I took Seachem's advice and started adding mine the day following the water change (to avoid the conditioner detoxifying certain minerals) and I think it is better.
"Cleaning" should not involve much beyond water changes. I vacuum over, sometimes slightly into, the sand in open areas, but no where else. You want organics to settle into the substrate, both to provide nutrients (this is your primary source of CO2 for the plants, along with some ammonia (nitrogen) and others) and to have a complete nitrogen cycle which includes de-nitrification as well as nitrification. The glass inside may need cleaning during the water change; I tend to do mine every week even though I see nothing, because algae will readily occur in the biofilm on surfaces.
Byron.
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MarcoPereira
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Thanks Byron. Well, did a 25% water change and lets hope ammonia dissipates sooner rather than later....am sure the cycle will continue and hope to have 0 readings in ammonia and nitrite soon.
Will see how it goes and will keep all informed.
Will see how it goes and will keep all informed.
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MarcoPereira
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Update: as of now, ammonia is 0, nitrite 0, nitrate not tested
I kind of expected ammo to be 0 as did do a 25% water change to try and remove some ammonia that I added and used Prime which I believe can throw results off... will try tomorrow night with another ammo reading....
And, the tank still looks very milky....hope that clears soon...what an eyesore.
I kind of expected ammo to be 0 as did do a 25% water change to try and remove some ammonia that I added and used Prime which I believe can throw results off... will try tomorrow night with another ammo reading....
And, the tank still looks very milky....hope that clears soon...what an eyesore.
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