Fluval 46 Cycling

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Great - so we're quite happy I'm on the right track then?
 
 
I've not seen mention of intended/possible fish yet.  If you need any help identifying the soft water species, look at most South American characins (tetra, hatchetfish, pencilfish), dwarf cichlids, most catfish (corys, plecos).  Also many SE Asian fish from the rasbora species, gourami; danio and barbs also but many of the latter get largish and all need room to swim as they are much more active.  Generally speaking.
 
The photo in your first post is the subject tank I take it?  If so, with fast growing plants (the stem plants) you will likely need some plant fertilizer with such soft water; the "hard" minerals like calcium, magnesium and a few others will be lacking without.  I use Seachem's Flourish Comprehensive Supplement, but another much the same is Brightwell Aquatics' FlorinMulti.  It takes very little.  Sometimes one has to experiment a bit until the balance between light and nutrients is reached, and along the way sometimes this plant or that plant fails and another species may work better.  Not every plant will grow in every aquarium.
 
Byron.
 
Thanks guys, really appreciate the detailed responses. 
 
TTA, I was actually considering some crushed coral to help with the water but I was concerned about it ruining the look of the black substrate. Placing it in the filter is a stroke of absolute genius! I will keep a very close eye on the pH level during the next few weeks.
 
Byron, that is indeed the tank. I did choose the hardiest plants I could find but will need to get some ferts for them. I am considering a school of 6-8 CPD's or Chili Rasboras initially. I am toying with the idea of adding a honey gourami or similar fish a few months down the line. Definitely nothing more than that, I'm not keen on over-stocking.
 
I don't often disagree with TTA [he posted #15 as i was typing my last post #16], but there are a couple of issues I'd like to mention.  I have for over 25 years lived with very soft water, even less than yours (my GH and KH measured by the water authority are around 7-8 ppm which is half of yours) and I have experimented with buffers several times over the years.
 
First, I would want to know the exact fish species intended.  Some may benefit, some may not, and I would not want to get into parameter adjustments without valid cause.  The cycling I never bother with, and I've had no issue in all these years.  Your plants and fertilizers will enter into all this as well.  I have some tanks that have a pH below 5, presumably, since the lowest test I have is the Tetra and it is certainly 5.  Other tanks run around 6.5, and these are the ones to which I add Equilibrium to raise the GH to 5 solely for the plants; this is said to not affect KH or pH, but something is keeping the pH higher than the other tanks and this is the only product not added to the other tanks.  I've no idea what the KH is, I never test for that.
 
Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is not advisable with soft water fish.  Stanley Weitzman (along with Lisa Palmer, Naercio Menezes and John Burns) wrote a two-part article in TFH in June/July 1996 that dealt with water issues for soft water fish:
 
However, sodium bicarbonate has no effective buffer action and cannot stabilize pH in the face of additional acidic waste products.  Also, one must not continually add sodium bicarbonate to adjust the pH because eventually the sodium ions present will reach intolerable levels.
 
My experiments with crushed coral were disastrous, as just three tablespoons in the filter of my 115g tank drove the pH from 6.4 to 7.6 within a day or two, and it remained there; reducing the coral didn't seem to make much difference.  A better substance is dolomite or aragonite, which has the further advantage of containing magnesium as well as calcium so it is a better buffer.  In the 1990's  I used about 2-3 tablespoons of dolomite gravel in the samed tank and the pH remained at 6.4-6.6 (out of the tap in those days the pH was well below 6, down at 5 or perhaps lower; they now use soda ash to raise it to 7 but this is temporary in aquaria).
 
Byron.
 
Byron, that is indeed the tank. I did choose the hardiest plants I could find but will need to get some ferts for them. I am considering a school of 6-8 CPD's or Chili Rasboras initially. I am toying with the idea of adding a honey gourami or similar fish a few months down the line. Definitely nothing more than that, I'm not keen on over-stocking.
 
 
OK, now we have fish species mentioned...the Boraras brigittae (chili) will thrive in your water with whatever the pH drops too; my group of these and Boraras maculatus were/are in one of my tanks that are not buffered at all.
 
The CPD (Celestichthys margaritatus, may still be seen under the former genus Danio) will not be too happy with the pH below 6 should it fall.  This species occurs in very soft water but having a pH around 7.3.  SF suggests pH in the 6.5 to 7.5 range.
 
The Honey Gourami is not as fussy as either of the others.  But here we come to compatibility issues.  The CPD are best on their own, in a decent sized group; read more here: http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/
The Boraras are very tiny fish, and in my experience such fish are not all that succedssful when significantly larger fish are in the tank.  I'm not meaning the gourami will eat them (though this is possible) but more the visual appearance.  Once you have such small fish, it is best to stay with other small fish.  If you like gourami, the pygmy sparkling gourami (Trichopsis pumila) works (I have six of these in with my Boraras maculatus), or given your very soft and acidic water, the licorice gourami would thrive.  The pygmy also has the interesting feature of "talking," as the common parlance goes, making a clicking sound with its pectoral fins when challenging another male.
 
Byron.
 
I really like the Chili, they are quite tiny but very striking, I could be tempted just to keep a slightly bigger school of them on their own. Although I have to say just looking at the licorice gourami and it is a stunning looking fish as well!
 
Ultimately, I'm not too concerned with what to stock it with at the moment as I want to make sure the filter is up and running properly first. I appreciate what you are saying regarding cycling, but I've started it now so I might as well complete the process given the ammonia levels. Furthermore, some of the ph/kh/gh talk is going over my head (as a newbie) but I'm trying to keep up best I can (wish I'd done chemistry at school all those years ago now!). I can get my hands on crushed coral from a friend with no problem if it comes to using it.
 
Late here so off to bed, thanks all!
 
 
Hate to clutter but........
 
And Byron what fun would life be if we agreed 100%?
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Licorice are difficult fish to keep, usually not for the beginning hobbyist. http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2012/08/28/licorice-gouramis/
 
 
Byron, you have planted tanks and likely never have nitrate issues. The cycle itself is a natural pH lowering process. This is why old tank syndrome features greatly lowered pH. I think in your case something else was involved. Some crushed coral may contain something else?
 
To raise both GH and KH simultaneously, add calcium carbonate (CaCO3). 1/2 teaspoon per 100 liters of water will increase both the KH and GH by about 1-2 dH. Alternatively, add some sea shells, coral, limestone, marble chips, etc. to your filter.
 
To raise the KH without raising the GH, add sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), commonly known as baking soda. 1/2 teaspoon per 100 Liters raises the KH by about 1 dH. Sodium bicarbonate drives the pH towards an equilibrium value of 8.2.
from http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html#altering
 
Calcium carbonate is not hugely water soluble. So it will have less of an affect than adding calcium carbonate.
 
But lets look at the other effects. Let's assume adding the crushed coral doubles his GH and KH, it is still very soft water. Let's assume that it triples them, and it is still very soft water. Mine is TDS 83 ppm and it is soft water. that is down from 106+ 14 years ago, and then it was still considered soft
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3dg GH and 3 dg KH still are considered soft even at 107 ppm. Unless one is keeping wild fish imported from acid environs, fish like tetras etc. should be just fine in that.
 
I made it very clear that the baking soda was only to be used during cycling, that the sodium would have to be removed before any fish went in
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A buffer is typically an additive that uses two things in combination to hold water at a designated pH level. Adding KH will not target a level it will simply work to prevent dropping and then ic can raise the pH of acid water some.
 
Acidic buffer solutions
An acidic buffer solution is simply one which has a pH less than 7. Acidic buffer solutions are commonly made from a weak acid and one of its salts - often a sodium salt.
 
Alkaline buffer solutions
An alkaline buffer solution has a pH greater than 7. Alkaline buffer solutions are commonly made from a weak base and one of its salts.
from http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/acidbaseeqia/buffers.html
 
Go to the Seachem site here and you will see they target pH by mixing their acid and alkaline buffers in different proportions.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AcidBuffer.html
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AlkalineBuffer.html
 
Basically, the bacteria use the carbonates from KH as their carbon source. The baking soda will get this into the water instantly whereas the coral takes some time to work. So the former works better during cycling while the coral etc. works better afterwards. And crushed coral is not a buffer, it is a way to add carbonates to a tank with the calcium coming along as well. Here is how the same source above states it:
 
Buffering Capacity (KH, Alkalinity)
Buffering capacity refers to water's ability to keep the pH stable as acids or bases are added. pH and buffering capacity are intertwined with one another; although one might think that adding equal volumes of an acid and neutral water would result in a pH halfway in between, this rarely happens in practice. If the water has sufficient buffering capacity, the buffering capacity can absorb and neutralize the added acid without significantly changing the pH. Conceptually, a buffer acts somewhat like a large sponge. As more acid is added, the ``sponge'' absorbs the acid without changing the pH much. The ``sponge's'' capacity is limited however; once the buffering capacity is used up, the pH changes more rapidly as acids are added.
 
Buffering has both positive and negative consequences. On the plus side, the nitrogen cycle produces nitric acid (nitrate). Without buffering, your tank's pH would drop over time (a bad thing). With sufficient buffering, the pH stays stable (a good thing). On the negative side, hard tap water often almost always has a large buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is too high for your fish, the buffering capacity makes it difficult to lower the pH to a more appropriate value. Naive attempts to change the pH of water usually fail because buffering effects are ignored.
 
In freshwater aquariums, most of water's buffering capacity is due to carbonates and bicarbonates. Thus, the terms ``carbonate hardness'' (KH), ``alkalinity'' and ``buffering capacity'' are used interchangeably. Although technically not the same things, they are equivalent in practice in the context of fishkeeping.
 
And lets not forget what KH stands for- Carbonate Hardness.
 
Look at what is in Equilibrium:
Soluble Potassium (K20)   23.0%
 ​
Calcium (Ca)   8.06%
 ​
Magnesium (Mg)   2.41%
 ​
Soluble Iron (Fe)   .011%
 ​
Soluble Manganese (Mn)   0.06%
 ​
from http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Equilibrium.html
 
Calcium yes, carbonates nope. Magnesium yes, carbonates no. Potassium also raises TDS. The Fe and Mn are very negligible. What I suggested is intended to add carbonates mostly and some calcium. And with every weekly water change it is reduced and then will take some time to build back up.
 
I went through all of this in 2011 on planet catfish in a thread I started. http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33073
 
Hi guys - back after a little hiatus.
 
I took the plunge and went with TTA's advice and added 1.5 teaspoons of bicarb soda to my tank. I re-tested with the pH kit and it was still showing around the 6 mark! I realised at this point that my kit was most likely faulty. I purchased an API test kit the next day and the pH was much higher than I had thought, very blue and certainly over the upper range of the kit! 
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 Obviously this is a bit of a spanner in the works, I tested the tap and it came out right around 7. So the bicarb has taken effect but I doubt I needed it based on my new pH kit.
 
Obviously it is far too high now, what is the best way to bring it down? I did a 70% water change about an hour ago and the colour hadn't really changed much! Will it just lower itself over time?
 
coley17 said:
Hi guys - back after a little hiatus.
 
I took the plunge and went with TTA's advice and added 1.5 teaspoons of bicarb soda to my tank. I re-tested with the pH kit and it was still showing around the 6 mark! I realised at this point that my kit was most likely faulty. I purchased an API test kit the next day and the pH was much higher than I had thought, very blue and certainly over the upper range of the kit! 
sad2.gif
 Obviously this is a bit of a spanner in the works, I tested the tap and it came out right around 7. So the bicarb has taken effect but I doubt I needed it based on my new pH kit.
 
Obviously it is far too high now, what is the best way to bring it down? I did a 70% water change about an hour ago and the colour hadn't really changed much! Will it just lower itself over time?
 
Do a major water change of all the tank water, vacuuming into the substrate.  [I'm assuming no fish are in this tank.]  I have never used sodium bicarbonate so I don't know if it remains strictly in the water or can leech into objects.
 
Testing the tap pH, remember to out-gas the CO2.  The tank water should be the same pH as the out-gassed tap water (obviously fresh water in the entire tank will also contain some CO2, I am meaning when the tank has been running for a couple days).
 
I still say one should never fuss around like this trying to adjust pH, but who am I...
 
Byron.
 
Hey Byron.
 
Yep still no fish. Only reason I boosted the pH was to try and stop the cycle from stalling. My kH is basically <1 so I was looking for a bit of a buffer as well. Now I have a more accurate tester i'll not be adjusting it beyond what it is from the tap. 
 
I'm still cycling so do you think I should just wait until the major water change at the end?
 
coley17 said:
Hey Byron.
 
Yep still no fish. Only reason I boosted the pH was to try and stop the cycle from stalling. My kH is basically <1 so I was looking for a bit of a buffer as well. Now I have a more accurate tester i'll not be adjusting it beyond what it is from the tap. 
 
I'm still cycling so do you think I should just wait until the major water change at the end?
 
I would do the complete water change right now.  You want all the sodium carbonate gone.  You have live plants, and fluctuating pH can be detrimental to plants too, some more than others.  Best thing is to get the water back to its stable state.
 
Re the cycling, I know not everyone will agree, but with your situation you do not need to cycle.  Get the water stable, feed the plants [we talked earlier about liquid fertilizers] and you'll be ready for the first few fish.  I have never "cycled" tanks, and I have live plants and soft slightly acidic water.  
This is not science fiction, it does work.  Keep it simple, you'll have fewer issues.
 
Byron.
 
I remember we discussed the silent cycle, I am feeding the plants ferts once a week (tropica premium stuff) but I'm not sure I really have enough plants to pull it off. I currently have high levels of nitrites - would I not expect minimal nitrites in a silent cycle? (Just wondering if my test for the nitrites is off now also)
 
coley17 said:
I remember we discussed the silent cycle, I am feeding the plants ferts once a week (tropica premium stuff) but I'm not sure I really have enough plants to pull it off. I currently have high levels of nitrites - would I not expect minimal nitrites in a silent cycle? (Just wondering if my test for the nitrites is off now also)
 
You have been dosing ammonia, so naturally there has been more than what the plants would readily take up (the species of plants and the numbers both factor into this).  The nitrite is likely the result of the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria.  Another reason for massive water changes to get rid of all this.  But yes, regents in test kits can expire; some have a date stamped or embossed on the bottle or the package.
 
I know there are other members who will argue with me on the "silent cycle," but there is proven scientific evidence that it works and no one can sensibly deny that.  I do admit that one has to be careful, as you need some fast-growing plants, and very few initial fish.  But there will be no ammonia and no nitrite detectable with our kits, and the fish are not being exposed to these.  You just can't go overboard.  But ammonia and nitrite must be zero for a few days before I would put any fish in.
 
The plants in your initial post photo include some stem plants, and these are fast-growing suitable for our purposes, and if they are showing signs of growth you have no issues.  The first fish should be few.  I would add some floating plants first, not only to further help in the "silent cycle" but fish are always more relaxed with a cover of plants above them, and that means they will settle in easier.  When you have some ideas about what fish you intend, I can suggest species and numbers if you ask.
 
Byron.
 
I'm thinking a nice school of CPD's would look good in there. Max out at 10 altogether? Once my pH normalizes it should sit right in their happy zone and the soft water will be good..
 
In the original pic I have stem plants in the back, however there were rotting a bit at the bottom so i've got them floating now and they are doing a fair bit better. I plan to add a couple of java ferns and/or swords in their place.
 
coley17 said:
I'm thinking a nice school of CPD's would look good in there. Max out at 10 altogether? Once my pH normalizes it should sit right in their happy zone and the soft water will be good..
 
In the original pic I have stem plants in the back, however there were rotting a bit at the bottom so i've got them floating now and they are doing a fair bit better. I plan to add a couple of java ferns and/or swords in their place.
 
On the plants, see if you can find the pygmy chain sword or regular chain sword (this one is just a tad larger).  Once established, these will send out runners and plants will sprout every couple of inches.  They do well in moderate light [I'll come back to the light], and are fast growers once they get going.
 
The light is likely the issue with the stem plants, and this is common.  Being fast-growing, stem plants need good light, and the lower leaves often die off as the plant puts its energy into growing from the tip which is also closest to the light.  Regular pruning of stem plants is usually needed; you just pull them up, pinch off the lower bits, and stick the cut ends back in the substrate.  With some of them every week may be the rate for this, with others every second or third or fourth week.  I avoid stem plants because my light is just not bright enough for most of them, although Brazilian Pennywort does do well, and also makes a nice floating plant.
 
You want lots of plants, thick, for the Celestial Pearl Danio, Celestichthys margaritatus.  This is a species that should be added together, i.e., not a few now and more later.  You can find more data here:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/
 

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