Flaky Epidermis - what's wrong ?

[abstract]

Yeah ! Got my salt 
So what to do now ?

Tim, definitely absolutely nothing on the glass    so I guess it's still not 100% certain what it is, but probably safe enough to try the salt first and just see how she responds.

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you use one tablespoon per gallon of water, obviously in a small container, not the main tank...you want to start with clean, pretreated water (i wouldn't use tank water) and make sure it is the same temp and that ALL the salt dissolves...it sometimes helps to dissolve it in a cup of warmer water and then add it to the smaller container....you then add the fish and watch for signs of distress....you should see rapid gill movement and some listless behavior...eventually you may even see the betta "pass out" in which it will lean to its side and slow breathing...as soon as it does this you must remove it and add it back to it's tank where it should come to in the matter of seconds....after 5-7 minutes (after the first few you can start increasing the length of time up to 10-15 minutes) remove her back to the main tank....do this 2-3 times each day

 

[Bloo]

Thanks Abstract ! I will start as soon as I'm home in 3 hours.

 

[abstract]

just wondering how it went

 

[Bloo]

Thanks abstract - she's looking a bit perkier today and her "stress stripes" are gone. But she's now looking a much brighter (darker) blue where she used to be kinda lighter blue
However...... she seems to have developed some secondary fin rot though it's not looking bad, but the edges are a bit frayed.

But overall she's looking good (under the circumstances) and she had a water change in her isolation container this morning. I will try and take some piccies tonight.
I don't want to risk putting her in the main tank until she's well on the road to recovery. I've also kept an eye on the other two and there's still absolutely no sign of whatever it is she's had - even the red crownie I wasn't 100% sure of.

Will keep you guys up to date

 

[SRC]

You know......



Just for arguments sake....

Anchor worms on a goldfish.

Anchor worms on a platy (in his eye socket).

Anchor worms on a bass.

Anchor worm removed from a Koi

Anchor worms on a goldfish

Lernea (anchorworm)- Anchorworms resemble a short piece of thread coming from beneath a single scale. Koi infected with anchorworms very often develop ulcer sores due to the damage caused by the worms as they bury into the flesh of the fish. Be aware that anchor worms will not disappear immediately. The treatment may take a week or longer, according to the water temperature.

This is a parasite that is extremely rare in aquarium fish. It is a copepod. It must be brought in by an infested fish. It is usually found in ponds. The head of the worm is anchored into the fish's skin.

Tweezers work well for removing the anchor worms, try to grip them as close to the wound as possible. Use treatment #4.

Actually, lernea is a copepod (crustacean arthropod) rather than a true worm. It looks like a small whip (a few mm to under an inch long) attached to the fish at the mouth end and with a forked tail. Rarely seen in pet fish not kept outdoors (in ponds), and usually then only in ones that have been fed live foods.

**scratches chin**

Fish Lice (argulus)- Fish lice are sometimes mistaken for a small patch of green algae on the fish. After looking closer, you will see that it is a round "bug" that is a little larger than a pencil lead. ***As with anchor worms, fish lice make little holes in the fish, making them vulnerable to bacterial infections.
Use treatment #4.

***Which is probably why your fish is developing fin rot.

Flukes (Gyrodactylus and dactylogyrus)- Flukes are the most commonly found parasite on koi and goldfish. High numbers can cause serious damage. Symptoms include flashing, gasping at the surface, frayed fins, and death. Most cases of ulcer disease are preceded by fluke infestations.
Treatment options in order of preference are #3 and #1 .

Gill flukes may show with red, inflamed gills, but otherwise many fish flukes are microscopic (some of the largest being just a few mm, but mostly smaller), and so confirmed diagnosis by physical appearence alone is not possible. Confirm with a vet or lab.

Usually flukes are too small to visualize with the naked eye. This also creates serious problems for trying to diagnose by general physical signs (hyperproduction of slime, inflamed gills) or general behavioral signs (listlessness, gasping, scratching, etc.). All these signs overlap considerably with other more common causes of skin and gill irritation, including ammonia poisoning and more common skin parasitisms such as ich. The first step in any tank where these signs are seen is to rule out ammonia poisoning first by testing for any level above 0.

Treatment #1) SALT DIP- Add non-iodized salt to water at 10 tablespoons per gallon or 8 pounds per 32 gallons. Dip fish in this solution for 3 to 5 minutes or until it starts to roll over. Repeat 2 more times at 12 hour intervals.

Treatment #3) POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE- Potassium permanganate is effective against all of the microscopic parasites listed above except ich. If you suspect that your fish may have parasites, but you do not have access to a microscope to confirm your suspicions, potassium should be your first choice for treatment. It is somewhat more risky than salt, but only when you fail to measure your gallonage and dosages accurately. Potassium will turn the water purple or pink when first added to the tank or pond. It will eventually turn brown, according to the amount of dissolved organics in the water. A 25% to 50% water change is recommended before beginning the treatment. Bypass the filter, ensure adequate aeration, and add potassium to the water at 6 grams (1 level teaspoon) per 800 gallons, In large systems, dissolve the crystals in warm water and distribute evenly around the pond or tank. Note the color of the water by submerging a white saucer 2-3 inches below the surface. If the color changes from purple/pink to brown/amber in less than 1 hour, redose at 1 teaspoon per 800 gallons. If the initial color change comes after 1 hour has elapsed, retreat at 1/2 teaspoon per 800 gallons. Monitor the color of the water for the next 10 hours. Whenever the color is brown, add more potassium at 1/2 teaspoon per 800 gallons. The key for effective treatment with potassium is to maintain the pink color in the water for 10 hours. After 10 hours, do another 50% water change or add dechlorinators to neutralize and de-color the potassium. Repeat the treatment in 3-4 days to ensure eradication of the parasites. The treatment regimen here is excerpted from Dr. Eric Johnson's excellent book "Koi Health and Disease". It contains more detailed information concerning the use of potassium and other fisheries chemicals used to treat goldfish and koi.

Treatment #4) DIMILIN- Mix dimilin with water @ 1 teaspoon per 2,000 gallons every 30 to 60 days for control of anchorworms and fish lice. These parasites will not clear immediately. According to the water temperature, they will be eradicated anywhere from a few days to a few weeks.

Courtesy of Mike Spafford
(once again, Mike comes through, this time with one of his clearest photos to date; note very small thread-like nematode on skin, circled)

Courtesy of Kevin Piper (another unpleasant photo of camallanus worms protruding from a fish)

Roundworms (Camallanus cotti ) - As shown below as an infection of connective tissue (usually internal worm infections cannot be seen externally and often affect the gut; in these cases, they have migrated to muscle tissue. Please read my article, Worms in my tank?? before jumping to the conclusion that any worm in the tank is a parasitic or disease causing worm. The large majority of small worms seen in the aquarium not attached to the fish are free-living and harmless (the ones shown below are an obvious exception). Most of these true parasites shown below require a fish host at some time in their life cycle. They often come in with contaminated live foods such as Tubifex worms.

Scientific Paper on Round Worms..i.e Camallanus Cotti

 

[Bloo]

WoW thanks for all that info SRC, but it's absolutely 100% not anchor worm or gill flukes
The stuff that was on her was less than 0.25mm (almost nothing) and only recognisable by taking a photo and blowing it up. She herself is not even an inch big. It honestly looked like sloughing skin.
Anyways, will try to get some piccies tonight

Just for reference - he're the pic of how she looked originally

 

[abstract]

how's she lookin?

 

[Bloo]

sorry camera battery was flat last night so it's been on charge - will take some piccies at home in a couple of hours. But she's doing good and is perky - but still have that "stuff"

 

[Bloo]

OK, bad news - got home and she's worse
Still swimming and eating and I've just done another salt bath but look at her now :
Should I give up on the salt bath and start treating with stronger meds ?
I have Interpet no. 12 at home now (anti parasite meds).
Sorry I've tried taking loads of pics but can't get them any clearer than this tonight.
For a more full blown pic, see Here

 

[black angel]

How long was she in the salt baths for? As she is obviously weakening then the salt should be stopped. Move on to the meds.
Fins crossed for her.

 

[Bloo]

Salt baths for 30 minutes at a 1% solution (which was 1 tsp in 500ml of water). I took abstracts advice, but also tried to understand more about salt baths and salt dips so did some research and reading on this & this website - both I found very informative. The salt I used was Aqua Tonic Salt by Interpet so from what I've read and hopefully understood - I did the right thing.

But I think it's now time to start with the harsher meds - just hope she's not too weakened now and can handle it

 

[SRC]

I wouldn't suggest doing salt dips for longer then 20 min. I usually do a 5 min first..then wait a few hours and do a 10 min one..then before I go to bed do another for 15 min.

You can do medications and the dips though..just a judgement call on whether or not you think she can handle it or not.

 

[black angel]

Is there any way you can get a microscope? If you catch her gently and with tweezers pull some off, see if you can see them moving, they may be big enough to see with the naked eye, but a microscope would be great.

 

[wuvmybetta]

om'gosh, she looks horrible. The interpet sounds like it might do the job, I would give it a go.

 

[Bloo]

Is there any way you can get a microscope? If you catch her gently and with tweezers pull some off, see if you can see them moving, they may be big enough to see with the naked eye, but a microscope would be great.

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I'm afraid not - unless I take her with me to work but that's like an hour journey and then still another 20 minute journey to the fish shop - and I'm not even sure if they have a microscope - but I can certainly check with them tomorrow.

But when she's out of the water, there is absolutely no sign of these little fluffy bits whatsoever, so not sure if tweezers would even be able to really pull anything off.

It's so frustrating

The others in the tanks are still 100% and no signs whatsoever of anything - so very odd indeed that she was the only affected one.

I've now added the Interpet meds so will know by tomorrow morning what the current verdict is.

If she's still ok - I'll do shorter salt dips instead of baths. Thanks SRC & BA.