Fishless Cycling

[rdd1952]

Time required varies greatly. First, I would advise to turn the temp up to the upper 80s to low 90s. the higher the temp, the quicker the bacteria reproduce. Also, check your pH. Optimal pH range is about 7.0 to 8.0. As the pH goes below 7.0, bacterial reproduction slows and a can stop below 6.0. Sometimes, you just have to do a large water change to get things moving again.

 

[nicnak]

Hi,im new to tropical fish keeping after having gold fish for a year in a 35l tank.
Just bought a 96l tank,set it up and put a couple of phantom tetras in (before reading about fishless cycling )
They have been in 4 days now and my readings are not showing any ammonia or nitrite,when do you think these should show up.My nitrate is between 20 and 40... cant really tell between the colours.But my ph is about8.2 which i've read is quite high.Did a 30% water change yesterday and the readings are from this morning.
Sorry for the rambling but not quite sure if i am doing this cycling right.

Thanks,Nicole

 

[rdd1952]

Hi Nicole and welcome to the forum.

If you only have 2 or 3 tetras, it may take a few days before you see ammonia. I'm not sure where you are located but from hearing your water stats of high pH and nitrate, I'd guess you are somewhere near London as those seem to be the norm there with the nitrate coming from the tap water. Just keep checking for ammonia and nitrite and doing water changes as needed to keep the levels as low as possible, preferable below .25 ppm. Here is a pretty good thread on how to do a fish-in cycle. Don't worry about the pH. The important thing is that it's stable. Most fish can easily adapt to any stable pH. Just keep in mind that when ou do start seeing ammonia, that it is more toxic because of the high pH so keeping ammonia low is even more important.

 

[nicnak]

Yes i'm just outside of london so i suppose this is why the ph is high.
I will keep checking ammonia and nitrite everyday

Thanks

 

[bangit]

Hi, thanks for the advice, just wondering, woudl it be ok to put some filter media from a pond into the tank to get the process started?

 

[rdd1952]

Adding stuff from a pond, in my opinion, isn't good as you don't know what type parasites or other things may be in the pond. Anytime you use media to seed a tank, you really want to be sure the tank is free of any diseases or parasites so as not to cause you problems later on.

 

[sj ponder]

Still having 5 ppm of nitrite 24 hours after adding ammonia is concerning. It would appear that none has been processed. Did the nitrate go up any in that time frame. How often did you add ammonia after the big water change last weekend?

Last weekend, after seeing the 5ppm (?) nitrite reading, we did another 90% water change to drop everything to zero, before going to the LFS. We were getting a little impatient to add a few fish. After telling the story to the sales guy at the LFS, he was also concerned about the nitrite reading prior to the water change. So in the end, my son decided he didn't want to try any fish. Feeling bad that he'd scared my son from buying any fish, the LFS store guy was actually trying to figure out a way to sell us some fish before we left.

Anyways, to answer your question, in going from 0 nitrite to 5 nitrite in 24hrs, nitrate went up from 20 to 30. Don't have good records on how much ammonia was added between the 1st and 2nd water change.

Since the 2nd water change last weekend, we're seeing ammonia drop to zero in 24hrs. We're not seeing any nitrite or nitrate. Puzzled by why we're not seeing any nitrate.

 

[rdd1952]

I can see the lack of nitrite. If the tank is cycled, it's quite possible that the nitrite is processed almost immediately after it is produced but that would result in nitrate. Is you tank planted? If so, then it's possible that the plants are using the ammonia rather than it being processed by the bacteria.

As far as the 5 ppm reading of nitrite, it's possible it was just a faulty test (too many/few drops something like that). As long as the ammonia is dropping (and there isn't anything in your filter that is removing it) and you aren't getting a nitrite reading, you are probably fine to add fish.

 

[mjbarnard]

Don't really understand my results/sequence of events.

Have established nano tank 35L. Upgrading to 120L tank currently right next to it.

Added large second filter to nano tank, primed with bactinettes and ran it for 3 weeks.

Set up new tank, added a bit of gravel, 2 plants, a decoration and second filter from old tank. No rush but expected to be able to transfer fish pretty quickly.

The next morning the tank was cloudy, and in the evening was so cloudy you couldn't see the back. Fine I thought a bacterial bloom which will settle, and tested. Ammonia 0, nitrite 3.3 and nitrate 110. I now realise the nitrite was not as high as peak in true cycling - but having been used to very stable parameters in old tank for some time (NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 10-20) to me they were "off the scale". The really puzzling thing is that I hadn't added fish or ammonia!

Where did the nitrite come from? I guessed there must have been enough biological material with the new substrate and plants to create the nitrite/nitrate I was seeing. I thought the levels were high so I didn't add ammonia and watched the tank for several days expecting the nitrite to drop as the bacterial population increased. But it stayed exactly the same for five days. I did a 50% water change to "kick start" it - both reduced but didn't go to zero (nitrite down to 0.6 to 1). NH3 was zero throughout.

So at day 7 I concluded that the filter hadn't transferred enough bacteria, and by now they were likely gone - so added ammonia. Used a calculator and correctly got the level up to 3. 12 hours later it was down to 1. Added ammonia up to 4 and then took 24 hours to get down to 2. Nitrite is now 1 and nitrate 10.

So - all rather puzzling. Why didn't the old filter kick in straight away to reduce the nitrite? Where did all the original ammonia come from since I hadn't added any. Whatever - I think I am now in a cycling process, and will continue the add and wait. Wonder why ammonia dropping more slowly on second addition and why I haven't got the ammonia completely to zero yet, and the nitrite doesn't seem to have increased as much as it did initially (although first few days).

Cloudiness cleared within 48 hours, and tap water doesn't contain nitrite. Tap water has some nitrate but not high (around 10). pH has been stable throughout around 8.0 (hard London tap water), and no filter charcoal.

 

[rdd1952]

First, hello and welcome to the forum.

I want to make sure I fully understood the time frame and progression of events. If I am correct, you ran the new filter on your nano tank for about 3 weeks, adding bactinettes in that time frame (probably didn't help any as any bacteria present in the bactinettes not needed to process the waste of the tank inhabitants would have died off). You then moved the new filter along with come gravel, plants and a decoration over to the new tank. You tested the next day and saw the high nitrite and nitrate.

If that is the case, the cloudyness is pretty common after first filling a tank or a large water change. I don't know that it is necessarily a bacterial bloom though. I still get it in my tanks if I do a larger water change. I'm also at a loss as to where the nitrite and nitrate came from in the new tank unless you used water with high nitrate from the old tank or it is in your tap water which is the norm for the London area. It's also possible, from what I have read in the last month or so, that the London tap water could have 20 ppm of nitrate one day and 100 ppm a week later. It seemed that after the storms you recently had, it took a huge jump up.

The fact that the filter wasn't processing the nitrte in the first 7 days probably was because you transfered only a small amount of bacteria over. As mentioned, there would only be enough bacteria in the filters on the tank to process the waste of the fish present (what is in the nano) so they would have had to severely catch up to handle 3.3 ppm. It's also possible that if the nano is heavily planted, that the plants are actually using the ammonia and thus the filter contains little bacteria for that purpose. That would mean that there was very little bacteria actually present on the filter when you moved it. That still doesn't account for where the original nitite and nitrate came from.

 

[mjbarnard]

Thank you for your reply and your courteous welcome. I am frequently in America and everyone seems so hospitable and polite.

You are exactly correct about the time frame.

Good point about the tap water - haven't checked it for some time, so just rechecked. NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 10-20. I have both API and Hagen Nutrafin liquid test kits, since the initial readings seemed so unusual that I thought it best to purchase a different manufacturer test kit to check. I agree the nitrate could have varied (first test on new tank 8 days ago), but that doesn't explain the initial high nitrite?

I think we will never know what the initial ammonia source was, but since the first readings put me off adding ammonia, I think I am essentially now in a new cycle.

The old tank has 5 guppies and 6 cardinal tetra. So I agree not much of a bioload, but probably max for the smaller tank.

Very interesting point about the planting. The nano is very heavily planted for its size. That could explain quite a lot about the lack of bacteria, although as you say not the original nitrite/nitrate readings. I am sure they were correct, since as I say I cross-checked with two kits and repeated them daily. The levels were pretty much the same for about a week.

Thanks again
Matthew

 

[rdd1952]

You are right that the source of the nitrite (and nitrate) in the new tank will probably never be known. I imagine the reason it wasn't being processed is that there is little bacteria present in the nano so the filter you moved over really wasn't seeded at all hardly. The plants are probably taking care of the majority of the waste the fish produce. If it is very heavily planted, you could probably run the nano without a filter (certainly not suggesting that nor would I try it) and not have any problems. And yes, you are probably basically doing a fishless cycle. More bactinettes may help with that but my understanding is that they don't contain the proper bacteria to process nitrite so it only helps with the easier of the 2 bacteria to develop. I have heard Safe Start (or Start Safe) mentioned as being the UK equivalent of Bio Spira but have also heard that it doesn't work so who knows if that is worth a try or not.

 

[nicnak]

Hi again
I've been cycling a new tank with 2 phantom tetras and this is the 7th day and still no ammonia or nitrite present.Should i still do a water change or wait till i see ammonia

Thanks,Nicole

 

[rdd1952]

You only need to do WCs when you see toxins or for normal weekly (or ever how often you do it) maintenance. Two tetras won't produce a lot of waste. When you have gone 7 days without seeing any toxins and without doing water changes to dilute them, you should be able to add a couple more fish.

 

[nicnak]

ok... off to the fish shop in a day or two then