Fishless Cycling

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I think he overdosed ammonia early on and did a water change. You are right though that water changes during a fishless cycle are unnecessary. They don't really harm anything since the bacteria aren't present in the water but just a waste of time and dechlorinator.
 
I have been following this thread and just wondered if you are doing a fishless cycle why you having been changing water and dechlorinating? Sorry if I have missed something. :)

No water changes, just water replacement. Water evaporates and the levels drop rapidly in the tank. Since the two tanks are bridged I have almost double the water surface area. So I add replacement water that I decloinate before adding. This keeps the water levels high so the water bridge doesn't fail. I normally have to add 1 - 1.5 gallons of water every few days from evaporation. I was also adding a touch of ammonia as well in an equivalent dose per volume to the replacement water. I did this because the additional replacement water would help to thin the ammonia levels and perhaps give false indicators of levels dropping. Was I wrong in adding the replacement ammonia to the replacement water?

I calculated it like this. It took 18cc of ammonia to bring the 20 gallon tank up to about 6 ppm. 18cc/20 gallons = 0.9cc/gallon at 6ppm level. So if I added replacement water, say a gallon, I would also add .9cc of ammonia to that water.

If I use the 18cc = 6ppm, then 18/6 = 3cc/ppm

If the tank drops to 4ppm of ammonia, then it would take 12cc of ammonia to bring a 20 gallon tank up to 4ppm. In this case 12cc/20 gallons = .6cc/gallon at 4ppm level. 1 gallon of replacement water would have .6cc of ammonia added to it.

Now that the tank appears to be reading 1 ppm of ammonia.

3cc = 1ppm
3cc/20 gallons = .15cc/gallon so 1 gallon of replacement water would have .15cc of ammonia added to it.

Also factor in the same calculations for the 10 gallon as well. 9cc of ammonia = 6ppm.


I think I see your problem. Most products that detoxify ammonia, such as Ammo-loc, change ammonia (toxic) into ammonium (non-toxic). The problem though is that ammonium will still give you a positive reading on your ammonia test kit. Did you ever have a nitrite reading at all? If it rose and dropped, you probably are cycled. I would stop using the Ammo-loc. Once a tank is cycled, it is unnecessary and an added cost.

As for the dechlorinator, it works instantly. As soon as it goes in the water, the chlorine is gone so how long you let it set is irrelevent. Actually, if you let your water sit for 24 hours,the chlorine will disspate anyway (chloramines won't and will have to be removed with dechlorinator).

Lighting isn't necessary during cycling unless you have plants which need it.


The declorinator doesn't actually have ammo-lock in it, it just reccomends that as the product to use if ammonia is found to be present. I think its just additional information, or cross product advertising. After rechecking the label, the ammo-lock is also sold by the same company that makes the dechlorinator, so its just cross product referencing. No nitrates recorded at all as of yet.

By the way my levels are at 1 ppm. On re-reading the add and wait method it says once at 1 ppm bring it back up to 4 ppm, is this true or do i wait until its at 0 ppm??

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Something is removing the ammonia. It isn't processing naturally or you would have nitrite in increasing amounts. I'm not certain what may be the problem since your dechlorinator does not have an affect on ammonia. I did see where a product Aquasonic make called CHLORMON does eliminate ammonia instantly. You've got me stumped on this one. I don't think continuing to add ammonia will have much effect since you aren't developing bacteria to process the nitrite. On the other hand, if your tank is processing all the ammonia and your nitrite isn't ever rising, then maybe you would be ok. One other note, are you using liquid test kits or strips? Sometimes, strips are very inaccurate, especially if they are old.

What is removing the ammonia is probably activated carbon in the filter, which I believe removes ammonia also...

And there is no difference in neutralizing chlorine rather than removing, you can't remove chlorine by adding the chemical, you only make it into something not dangerous (I'm pretty sure though, if you can prove me wrong though, go ahead!). (I am referring to something you said earlier) I used a dechlorinator that said it "neutralized" Chlorine and Chloramine, yet my tank still cycled in a week.

Again referring to a previous comment (I really don't want to go back and find that comment and to do all the work, especially because I have dial-up and it will take forever!) I don't think snails will be a problem at all when getting mature gravel, because ammonia kills all living things.


The way I cycled my tank: I didn't have any seeded stuff, but I still managed to fully cycle my tank in 1 week. I added 5 ppm ammonia then I replenished the ammount to 5 ppm whenever it got lower. My tank light was always on, and my heater was set to the highest setting (86 degrees Fahrenheit). I was using Ace Brand Janitorial Strength Ammonia.

Sorry if somebody said this already...lots more pages left for me to read (I already know how to fishless cycle, I'm just interesed in what people have to say)
 
Well as I said on Friday, I decided to do a complete (well 95%) water change. This still left a reading of 0.25 ammonia and 0 nitrates. So I added some ammo lock.
I visited my lfs and the guy asked me why I wanted to do a fishless cycle and said not many people did this. I told him it was all the rage on internet fish forums!!
Anyway I got a couple of dalmation mollies (Max and Ruby) and they are looking great.
Just tested and still showing 0.25/50 ammonia however my ph is 6.4 but I gather that ammo lock can reduce your ph, is this a problem?
 
I'm not sure about ammo-loc reducing pH. The main thing is that the pH stays consistant and doesn't have large swings. Most fish can adjust to a pH that is different from their optimal pH. The problms start when the pH starts to make wide swings such as when you use the pH altering chemicals.

As for still having an ammonia reading, th ammo lock will make the ammonia non-toxic but won't remove it so you will continue to get a reading until the tank is cycled. Just keep a close check on the nitrites to make sure they don't tar rising too quickly.

A side note about ammonia and pH. As the pH of your water drops, the toxicity of the ammonia will also drop. At a certain point (not sure wat the exact number is but somewhere in he low 6s) the ammonia changes to ammonium and becomes non-toxic. The opposite occurs as pH rises, ammonia becomes more toxic.
 
Right. Either something's gone horribly wrong or......my tank's cycled. Time to ask the panel.

I've been doing the fishless cycling method for about a month and a half. (My filter was originally positioned in such a way that it wasn't really moving the water around much, stuff only started to happen after I moved it about a month ago, which I guess is why it took so long). A couple of weeks ago, my nitrite and nitrite levels rocketed off the charts as I was expecting them to. So far so good, right?

Anyway, today's reading:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0.50
Nitrate: 0
PH: 8.2 (not ideal, but I don't really know how to fix that without resorting to chemicals)

At first I was celebrating because of the nitrite dropping but then I remembered in the method it said nitrates could only be removed by water changes, so how come I'm getting a 0 for them? I'm now thinking I've done something wrong and buggered it all up. The only thing that I can think might've affected it is that I put about a gallon of (dechlorinated) water into the tank to top it up (all that scooping water into test tubes has lowered the level a bit) about two days ago, which coincides with the nitrate dropping off.

What do you lot think? Do I need to keep cycling, or is it fish time? (Oh God, I hope it's the latter.)
 
Right. Either something's gone horribly wrong or......my tank's cycled. Time to ask the panel.

I've been doing the fishless cycling method for about a month and a half. (My filter was originally positioned in such a way that it wasn't really moving the water around much, stuff only started to happen after I moved it about a month ago, which I guess is why it took so long). A couple of weeks ago, my nitrite and nitrite levels rocketed off the charts as I was expecting them to. So far so good, right?

Anyway, today's reading:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0.50
Nitrate: 0
PH: 8.2 (not ideal, but I don't really know how to fix that without resorting to chemicals)

At first I was celebrating because of the nitrite dropping but then I remembered in the method it said nitrates could only be removed by water changes, so how come I'm getting a 0 for them? I'm now thinking I've done something wrong and buggered it all up. The only thing that I can think might've affected it is that I put about a gallon of (dechlorinated) water into the tank to top it up (all that scooping water into test tubes has lowered the level a bit) about two days ago, which coincides with the nitrate dropping off.

What do you lot think? Do I need to keep cycling, or is it fish time? (Oh God, I hope it's the latter.)

Do you have any plants in your tank?
Putting a gallon of water in your tank would not have got rid of your nitrAtes.
Which test kit are you using? To be honest it sounds as though your test kit is either not registering or you've done it wrong. You can't have zero nitrates, not possible. :)
 
I've got plastic plants, and a 14" nuclear submarine wreck that I got from Pets@Home. Maybe it has its own little reactor inside of it and it's sucking the nitrates away. (Yes, I know that's probably not how nuclear reactors work! :D)

I've also been using one of those big master test kits - they're the liquid ones with the test tubes and the cards and whatnot. *nod*
 
I've got plastic plants, and a 14" nuclear submarine wreck that I got from Pets@Home. Maybe it has its own little reactor inside of it and it's sucking the nitrates away. (Yes, I know that's probably not how nuclear reactors work! :D)

I've also been using one of those big master test kits - they're the liquid ones with the test tubes and the cards and whatnot. *nod*

If it's the API kit the nitrAte test is a little more complicated. After you added 10 drops of bottle 1 are you sure you shook bottle 2 for 30 secs before you added the 10 drops to the test tube. Did you then make sure you shook the test tube for a full 1 minute before starting the 5 minute wait?
 
You definitely should have a nitrate reading, and a high one at that, if your tank has cycled. I would suggest raising th ammonia back to around 5 ppm and then see how long it takes for the ammonia and nitrite to oth go back to 0. You may have a defective nirate kit or an old one. I have heard that they can get old and inaccurate.
 
If you are using the API test kit make sure it is really reading correctly on the NitItes. If when you add the liquid it starts off purple and then changes to greeny blue then you are in fact off the charts (to test if this is the case do a test of 1/4 tank water and 3/4 tap water (assuming your tap water has 0ppm nitrIte) then multiply by 4 to get the actual ppm). If it's really 0ppm NitrIte then the tester fluid will go in blue and stay blue and never go purple. I very nearly stocked when my NitrItes were off the chart because the 'off the chart breakdown' colour is very close to that of 0ppm - Thankfully I didn't!

If this is the case then it may explain why you have no NitrAtes.
 
Afternoon!

So, I've done the Nitrate test properly, the way Cheffi said to do. It's still registering nothing. Very, very, very weird.
However, when I tested for nitrite, it stayed sky-blue without going to any other colours, which should mean it's at 0. Surely the tank must've cycled and I've just got a defective nitrate test or something? The ammonia is being processed in about 24 hours, everything seems to be fine. Oh, the only other thing - I read that I should have a lot of algae by now but my tank water's clear as a bell. Hmm.
 
Jez, if you don't have any algae or nitrates, I don't think you're cycled. After you add the ammonia, how often do you check the ammonia and nitrite reading. Try checking them both every 2 hours after adding ammonia. Even if you have bacteria present that are handling the nitrite, you should still see a slight rise in nitrites once the ammonia starts to be processed since there is so much present at one time. It's just physically impossible for a tank to cycle and not have an enormous amount of nitrate - and algae.
 
I have a great suspicion of test kits, but still use them as there's no real alternative.

At the end of my fishless cycle I was getting wildly erratic nitrate readings and so bought a second test kit from a different manufacturer. The readings I got varied wildly - when the API kit gave high readings about 80-100ppm, the Nutrafin test gave some very low readings at 5ppm and I also had it happen vice versa.

I may also have suffered a bit from the problem that Egmel highlighted above - my nitrite readings had been at what I thought was 0 for a few days and all the other signs were good (0 ammonia and plenty of brown algae on the plants and blooms on the glass) so I fully stocked and almost immediately had a problem with high nitrites.

Now I dont know if the test kit was giving off readings, or if it was a different issue that caused a die off in my nitrite munching bacteria, but either way it was a very stressful few days watching your fish suffering and doing 2 massive water changes per day to keep on top of the problem.

My advice would have to be, dont be too hasty to stock up - its better to add a few drops of ammonia for a few more days to make very sure that you're cycled. However boring it is staring at an empty tank, its much worse looking at a tank full of fish and knowing that they are having a hard time.
 
There are threads almost daily about the proper method for fishless cycling. In actuality, a Google search will result in hundreds of links and each of those will give you slightly different instructions. I wanted to cover two of the most common ones and their advantages and disadvantages.

Let me start by saying that when you cycle a tank, you are really cycling the filter. That is where the vast majority of the nitrifying bacteria will colonize. Some bacteria are present on the tank walls, decorations, and in the substrate but for the most part they are in/on the filter. Basically, there are NO nitrifying bacteria present in the water itself.

First, a couple things that are common regardless of which method you use. Obviously, you set up the tank with clean, dechlorinated water. I believe it is best to fill the tank and let any sand/gravel dust or cloudiness settle for a few days before you add ammonia. This will prevent cloudy water from giving you a skewed reading when you test. Second, raise the water temperature to the mid to upper 80s. I have even had success with temperatures in the low 90s. The warmer water promotes bacteria growth and will speed the cycle. Also, you will need to add extra aeration via an air stone and air pump. The warmer water temperature will force the oxygen from the water so you must add aeration to replenish it.

Items Needed:

Bottle of pure ammonia. If you don?t know where to find it, this thread may help you. Pure ammonia will only list ammonia and water as ingredients. Chelating agents are ok. Without going into great detail, that is simply a bonding agent that keeps the ammonia and water ?mixed?. If it lists dyes, fragrances or surfactants, you don?t want it. If the bottle doesn?t have an ingredient label, shake the bottle. If it foams, it won?t work. A few air bubbles that disappear immediately are ok.
A good test master test kit. Get a good liquid master test kit. Those generally contain tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and high pH. You won?t necessarily need the pH tests during the cycling process but you will later. I would also suggest getting a KH test kit too although, once again, it?s not necessary for the cycling process.
A medicine dropper. Any cheap one that you get at the local drug store will do.

While you are waiting on the dust to settle and the water to clear, I suggest you do a couple things. First, test the parameters of your tap water. It is important to know the pH and KH of your tap water so you will know what fish are compatible with your pH. It is also very important to know if there is any ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in your tap water. A lot of municipal water supplies have some or all of those present and well water could also have them present. Knowing that could save you a lot of head scratching later when you have an elevated level that may be caused by your tap water rather than a problem in the tank.

You should also run a little test to determine how much ammonia to add to your tank. Since medicine droppers come in all different sizes, it?s hard to say that you need X drops per gallon to get to 5 or 6 ppm to start. I have 3 different droppers for adding fertilizers and for drawing tank water for testing and there is a big difference in the size drops they dispense. Take a small bucket, one of the buckets you used to fill your tank or wash you?re sand. Fill it with water and then add 2 to 4 drops of ammonia per 5 gallon of water. Swirl it around to mix it and test to see what the ammonia reading is. Continue to do this until your reading is 5 to 6 ppm. Remember how many drops of ammonia you added and then, some simple maths will tell you how much to add to your tank to get the 5 to 6 ppm required to begin cycling.

Ok. Your tank is set up, the water has cleared, and you know how much ammonia to add. Let?s get started.

?Add and Wait? Method

This is the method I have used to cycle 5 tanks (from 2.5 to 75 gallon) and it has worked perfectly. I think it is the simplest and requires the least amount of work. First add your ammonia to raise the level to 5 to 6 ppm. Now you simply wait on the ammonia to drop back to around 1 ppm. Spend the time researching the fish you like and see if they are compatible with each other, with your tap pH, tank size, etc.

Test daily to see what the ammonia reading is. There is no use to test for anything else. Nitrite and nitrate won?t be present until some ammonia has processed. Ammonia will raise your pH so no use to test it either. Once you see a drop in the ammonia, test for nitrite. There should be some present. When the ammonia drops back to about near zero (usually takes about a week), add enough to raise it back to about 3 to 4 ppm and begin testing the nitrite daily.

Every time the ammonia drops back to zero, raise it back up to 3 to 4 ppm and continue to check nitrites. The nitrite reading will go off the chart. Once the ammonia is dropping from around 4 ppm back to zero in 12 hours or less you have sufficient bacteria to handle the ammonia your fish load produces. Continue to add ammonia daily as you must feed the bacteria that have formed or they will begin to die off.

The nitrite spike will generally take about twice as long to drop to zero as did the ammonia spike. The reason for this is two-fold. First, the nitrite processing bacteria just develop slower than those that process ammonia. Second, you are adding more nitrite daily (every time you add ammonia, it is transformed into nitrite raising the level a little more) as opposed to the ammonia, which you only add once at the start and then waited on it to drop to zero. During this time, you should occasionally test for nitrate too. The presence of nitrate means that nitrite is being processed, completing the nitrogen cycle. The nitrate level will also go off the chart but you will take care of that with a large water change later. It will seem like forever before the nitrite finally falls back to zero but eventually, almost overnight, it will drop and you can celebrate.

At this point, your tank will probably look terrible with brown algae everywhere and probably cloudy water. As I mentioned, the nitrate reading will also be off the chart. Nitrates can only be removed with water changes. Do a large water change, 75 to 90 percent, turn the heat down to the level the fish you have decided on will need, and you are ready to add your fish. You can safely add your full fish load as your tank will have enough bacteria built up to handle any waste they can produce.

?Add Daily? Method

I call this the ?Add Daily? method because that is what you do. The start is exactly like the other method. To begin, you add enough ammonia to raise the level to 5 or 6 ppm. The difference is that the next day and each day thereafter you add the same amount. This continues until the ammonia drops to zero. This will take much longer than the other method because of the massive amount of ammonia the tank will initially contain. It generally takes about 3 days before any bacteria begin to form and you are able to notice even a small change in the color of your tests. In the other method, on the 3rd day there will still only be about 5 to 6 ppm of ammonia in the tank. With the ?Add Daily? method, there will be approximately 15 to 18 ppm on the 3rd day so you need a lot of bacteria to process all of that.

Once the ammonia finally drops back to near zero, cut the amount of ammonia you are adding daily in half. That will still be plenty to keep the bacteria already developed fed. Continue to add the ammonia daily and test for nitrites. Once the nitrite drops back to zero, do your big water change and add your fish.

Advantages & Disadvantages: As I mentioned, the cycling process will take longer using the ?Add Daily? method simply because you are forcing the bacteria to process quite a bit more ammonia. The advantage of that method though is that there will be much more bacteria present at the end than in the ?Add & Wait? method. If you plan to have a heavy fish load (overstock) or keep messy fish (plecos, goldfish and Oscars for example), this may be the best way for you to go.

If you plan to keep normal tropicals with normal stocking levels as I do, cycling with the ?Add & Wait? method should work fine for you. It has worked well for me. Some articles I have read even stated that if the ammonia level ever goes over 6 to 8 ppm that it severely slows the process and is a waste of time and effort.

Summation: As I said to begin, these are only 2 versions of the fishless cycle. There are numerous variations on these methods. One way to speed the cycling process is to ?seed? the tank with a bacteria source from an established tank. See if a friend can give you an old filter from one of their tanks or if the local fish store has some gravel, filter media or anything that will provide a bacteria source. Any bacteria source will help.

As a general rule, don?t waste your time or money on ?bacteria starter? products such as Cycle or Prime. The consensus is that they serve no useful purpose. The fact that they have been shipped on un-refrigerated trucks and stored in hot warehouses leads most to believe that there couldn?t possibly be any live bacteria left in the bottles. One possible exception is Bio Spira. I have personally not used this product but most things I have read suggest it works IF it has been handled properly (always refrigerated). Only purchase it from a reputable source that you trust.

I apologise (UK Resident) I'm still confused before i start - how do tell when to stop adding amonia? - when is the end of the cycle noticed?

Regardless of which method you choose, please, for the sake of your fish, do a fishless cycle. It prevents them from having to go through all the toxins and saves you a LOT of water changes, stress and lost fish. A little patience in the beginning will pay big dividends down the road.
 
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