Fishless Cycle So Far

[pastabake]

A pH of 9 should cause no problems with the bacteria. Its a low pH that generally causes problems ... as waterdrop can attest to.

What kind of cloud, green or milky?

If you have nothing in the tank that could cause a rise in the pH then the most likely reason for such a rise from 7-9 is that you have added too much ammonia ... if this is the case then the reason for your failure to cycle may be because the excess ammonia has encouraged the wrong kind of bacteria.

Do water changes daily until the nitrite becomes readable and then 10% changes thereafter.

I think adding small amounts of ammonia daily is the best way to go because as long as you don't add to much, your tank will cycle. Adding large amounts and then waiting basically means that if you or your tests mess up the cycle can mess up.

IMO less ammonia is always better, because once cycled you can always ramp it up over a few days to produce a larger bacterial colony.

 

[waterdrop]

pasta,

Your statement:
"If you have nothing in the tank that could cause a rise in the pH then the most likely reason for such a rise from 7-9 is that you have added too much ammonia ... if this is the case then the reason for your failure to cycle may be because the excess ammonia has encouraged the wrong kind of bacteria."

is interesting. I -has- occurred to me that perhaps kharma and myself (and perhaps the lioness with the 3 cubs) have all suffered various slowing of the fishless cycles due to excessive ammonia during the late first phase or the early second phase (second phase being when the nitrite is spiking.) In my case, my AOBs were processing ammonia so fast (sometimes I measured 4ppm dropping to 0ppm in two hours) that I got this feeling that I should add another 4ppm of ammonia to the tank to maintain the AOBs, even if it was within the same day. I subsequently read through the followups in RDD's fishless cycling thread and discovered one where he says that after the nitrite spike period starts, you only want to "maintain" the AOBs (ie. with minimal ammonia, daily only (my emphasis)) Anyway, since 1ppm of ammonia produces 2.7ppm of nitrite, I may have had too much nitrite.

 

[LionessN3cubs]

pasta,

Your statement:
"If you have nothing in the tank that could cause a rise in the pH then the most likely reason for such a rise from 7-9 is that you have added too much ammonia ... if this is the case then the reason for your failure to cycle may be because the excess ammonia has encouraged the wrong kind of bacteria."

is interesting. I -has- occurred to me that perhaps kharma and myself (and perhaps the lioness with the 3 cubs) have all suffered various slowing of the fishless cycles due to excessive ammonia during the late first phase or the early second phase (second phase being when the nitrite is spiking.) In my case, my AOBs were processing ammonia so fast (sometimes I measured 4ppm dropping to 0ppm in two hours) that I got this feeling that I should add another 4ppm of ammonia to the tank to maintain the AOBs, even if it was within the same day. I subsequently read through the followups in RDD's fishless cycling thread and discovered one where he says that after the nitrite spike period starts, you only want to "maintain" the AOBs (ie. with minimal ammonia, daily only (my emphasis)) Anyway, since 1ppm of ammonia produces 2.7ppm of nitrite, I may have had too much nitrite.

waterdrop I didnt have excessive ammonia late in my first phase as the first phase has never started for me. I added ammonia and nothing has ever happened no matter how much or how little ammonia has been in the tank in the past 19 days. Not so much as even a TINY drop in ammonia...ever. I DID have too much ammonia in for the first week (7 of 19 days) but since then my levels have been where they were supposed to be..and even lower. Still nothing happens
ph has always been fine
Heat WAS dropping below 80 at night for that first week...and going 88+ during the day because of my hood lights (gotta fix that problem before i get fish) but only for that first week also

 

[kharma2815]

pasta,

Your statement:
"If you have nothing in the tank that could cause a rise in the pH then the most likely reason for such a rise from 7-9 is that you have added too much ammonia ... if this is the case then the reason for your failure to cycle may be because the excess ammonia has encouraged the wrong kind of bacteria."

is interesting. I -has- occurred to me that perhaps kharma and myself (and perhaps the lioness with the 3 cubs) have all suffered various slowing of the fishless cycles due to excessive ammonia during the late first phase or the early second phase (second phase being when the nitrite is spiking.) In my case, my AOBs were processing ammonia so fast (sometimes I measured 4ppm dropping to 0ppm in two hours) that I got this feeling that I should add another 4ppm of ammonia to the tank to maintain the AOBs, even if it was within the same day. I subsequently read through the followups in RDD's fishless cycling thread and discovered one where he says that after the nitrite spike period starts, you only want to "maintain" the AOBs (ie. with minimal ammonia, daily only (my emphasis)) Anyway, since 1ppm of ammonia produces 2.7ppm of nitrite, I may have had too much nitrite.

I think you may probably be right. I went waaay overboard with the ammonia the first few days and even now haven't got the dosage quite right. I'm going to do a massive water change tomorrow night when I get in from work and see if that makes a difference (can't do it tonight because my bucket is currently holding my new piece of bogwood which has been soaking all day).

 

[kharma2815]

A pH of 9 should cause no problems with the bacteria. Its a low pH that generally causes problems ... as waterdrop can attest to.

What kind of cloud, green or milky?

If you have nothing in the tank that could cause a rise in the pH then the most likely reason for such a rise from 7-9 is that you have added too much ammonia ... if this is the case then the reason for your failure to cycle may be because the excess ammonia has encouraged the wrong kind of bacteria.

Do water changes daily until the nitrite becomes readable and then 10% changes thereafter.

I think adding small amounts of ammonia daily is the best way to go because as long as you don't add to much, your tank will cycle. Adding large amounts and then waiting basically means that if you or your tests mess up the cycle can mess up.

IMO less ammonia is always better, because once cycled you can always ramp it up over a few days to produce a larger bacterial colony.

The water's gone a milky colour which I'm hoping means a bacterial bloom and not an algae bloom.

 

[Dan81192]

A pH of 9 should cause no problems with the bacteria. Its a low pH that generally causes problems ... as waterdrop can attest to.

What kind of cloud, green or milky?

If you have nothing in the tank that could cause a rise in the pH then the most likely reason for such a rise from 7-9 is that you have added too much ammonia ... if this is the case then the reason for your failure to cycle may be because the excess ammonia has encouraged the wrong kind of bacteria.

Do water changes daily until the nitrite becomes readable and then 10% changes thereafter.

I think adding small amounts of ammonia daily is the best way to go because as long as you don't add to much, your tank will cycle. Adding large amounts and then waiting basically means that if you or your tests mess up the cycle can mess up.

IMO less ammonia is always better, because once cycled you can always ramp it up over a few days to produce a larger bacterial colony.

The water's gone a milky colour which I'm hoping means a bacterial bloom and not an algae bloom.

just keep the filter going

 

[waterdrop]

A pH of 9 should cause no problems with the bacteria. Its a low pH that generally causes problems ... as waterdrop can attest to.

What kind of cloud, green or milky?

If you have nothing in the tank that could cause a rise in the pH then the most likely reason for such a rise from 7-9 is that you have added too much ammonia ... if this is the case then the reason for your failure to cycle may be because the excess ammonia has encouraged the wrong kind of bacteria.

Do water changes daily until the nitrite becomes readable and then 10% changes thereafter.

I think adding small amounts of ammonia daily is the best way to go because as long as you don't add to much, your tank will cycle. Adding large amounts and then waiting basically means that if you or your tests mess up the cycle can mess up.

IMO less ammonia is always better, because once cycled you can always ramp it up over a few days to produce a larger bacterial colony.

The water's gone a milky colour which I'm hoping means a bacterial bloom and not an algae bloom.

just keep the filter going

yeah, I think what Dan means is don't worry about it, visible bacterial bloom or not - its not an observation you take action on one way or the other

(and yeah, milky is pretty definately a bacterial bloom - you would notice a different color tint to an algae bloom IME)

 

[waterdrop]

pasta,

Your statement:
"If you have nothing in the tank that could cause a rise in the pH then the most likely reason for such a rise from 7-9 is that you have added too much ammonia ... if this is the case then the reason for your failure to cycle may be because the excess ammonia has encouraged the wrong kind of bacteria."

is interesting. I -has- occurred to me that perhaps kharma and myself (and perhaps the lioness with the 3 cubs) have all suffered various slowing of the fishless cycles due to excessive ammonia during the late first phase or the early second phase (second phase being when the nitrite is spiking.) In my case, my AOBs were processing ammonia so fast (sometimes I measured 4ppm dropping to 0ppm in two hours) that I got this feeling that I should add another 4ppm of ammonia to the tank to maintain the AOBs, even if it was within the same day. I subsequently read through the followups in RDD's fishless cycling thread and discovered one where he says that after the nitrite spike period starts, you only want to "maintain" the AOBs (ie. with minimal ammonia, daily only (my emphasis)) Anyway, since 1ppm of ammonia produces 2.7ppm of nitrite, I may have had too much nitrite.

waterdrop I didnt have excessive ammonia late in my first phase as the first phase has never started for me. I added ammonia and nothing has ever happened no matter how much or how little ammonia has been in the tank in the past 19 days. Not so much as even a TINY drop in ammonia...ever. I DID have too much ammonia in for the first week (7 of 19 days) but since then my levels have been where they were supposed to be..and even lower. Still nothing happens
ph has always been fine
Heat WAS dropping below 80 at night for that first week...and going 88+ during the day because of my hood lights (gotta fix that problem before i get fish) but only for that first week also

Sorry Lioness, I probably shouldn't have included you, didn't mean to offend or anything...
I commend you for taking action on getting the sponge filter shipped to you from steve - I've been following that and hoping it will mean success for you!

I just lumped you in with me and kharma because of your first 7 days of high ammonia.
Here's the theory I read (hope not to complicated to follow, lol)...
The comments made in various threads about what happens at ammonia of around 8ppm and higher were as follows:
At this higher concentration, a different species of bacteria develops and establishes itself in the media. This other species competes for food and oxygen with our desired species, thus slowing the numbers of the desired species. Then, when we lower the ammonia concentration below this 7-8ppm threshold, the undesirable species has to die off, give up its anchor spots on the media and be replaced by the desirable species that likes the 2-6ppm ammonia environment. The theory is that this changeover process is slow, but has to happen and so represents a significant set-back in fishless cycling. If that theory is correct, it could easily be a contributor to why you are not seeing ammonia drop at only 12 days (19 minus 7). I think many fishless cyclers go a couple of weeks without seeing the drop.

[Let me say that I'm the first to admit that I may be repeating mere speculations here. Speculation cannot be stopped when there is very little published science (because of almost no funding in a direct sense, and only low funding for studies in slightly overlapping areas in fish farming or oceanography), precious few controlled experiments and plenty of anxious fishless cycling pseudo-scientist parents (like me )... In my own case I find the business of searching about for the theories and explanations of why F-L-C works or doesn't work to be pure entertainment and fun in and of itself, otherwise it would drive me nuts! I know it will eventually be over and I will go on to enjoying tropical fish, but I'm a patient guy and just want to wallow in the moment as it were. ]

~~waterdrop~~

 

[LionessN3cubs]

Sorry Lioness, I probably shouldn't have included you, didn't mean to offend or anything...
I commend you for taking action on getting the sponge filter shipped to you from steve - I've been following that and hoping it will mean success for you!


goodness no I wasn't offended even slightly! I just saw that you theorizing and didnt want you to figure me into your theory if I didnt fit there The more you explained what you meant, I realized that I did fit in with your theory and thats fine either way

 

[waterdrop]

Sorry Lioness, I probably shouldn't have included you, didn't mean to offend or anything...
I commend you for taking action on getting the sponge filter shipped to you from steve - I've been following that and hoping it will mean success for you!


goodness no I wasn't offended even slightly! I just saw that you theorizing and didnt want you to figure me into your theory if I didnt fit there The more you explained what you meant, I realized that I did fit in with your theory and thats fine either way

Oh good, I'm glad you feel that way. There's been at least one other busy TFF mom I've seen get really impatient with all the theorizing. You're hanging in there pretty well, considering 3 cubs, lol.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[kharma2815]

DAY 26 (and I'm starting to get frustrated):

Just performed a water change of about 120L and Nitrite is still off the charts. This is my third big water change in a week so surely I should have seen some improvement in the nitrite levels. I know it can take anything up to 6 weeks to get the tank cycled completely but it's 4 weeks this Sunday and my Nitrite hasn't dropped by even a tiny bit. I must be doing something wrong, I just have no idea what!

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Kharma,

If you've done a 120 litre change on a tank which is holding around 135 litres, thats a 90% change (give or take 1.11111% ). Try doing the same again as soon as possible. If nitrite is still off the chart after that, i'd say you are performing the test incorrectly or your test kit is faulty, as that would be the equivalent of a 99% change.

Alternatively, if you have another test kit (or know someone who does) try testing with a different kit, just to be sure.

Something definitely sounds wrong with those results IMO.

Cheers

BTT

 

[waterdrop]

hey BTT, isn't is true that when you do a large water change during fishless cycling and recharge the ammonia back up - that you are setting your bacterial growth medium up to be better for future growth of the bacteria BUT that the water change itself will cause a bit of a slowdown in the process itself? I seem to remember from somewhere that water changes, while they can be really good for resetting various parameters (too much nitrite, too low pH, maybe even very high nitrates) can also induce a mild bit of a shock to the bacterial colony, resulting in a bit of a pause.

I mean, I know I am putting myself in dangerous territory here, as I know Bignose of somebody even wrote a thread on why it is *good* to do water changes during fishless cycling (and I for sure have done several!) but I keep having this vague memory... (for one thing it can possibly be a bit of a pH jump, possibly a hardness jump etc.)

[kharma, are you sticking carefully to only adding 2-3ppm ammonia only -once- per day?]

~~waterdrop~~

 

[backtotropical]

To my knowledge, Waterdrop, there is no evidence that even the largest of water changes will have a negative effect on the AOB / NOBs (I hate that abbreviation ). I am unsure of the consequences for the bacteria of a pH / kH swing, but large water changes seems to have worked in many cases detailed on TFF in the past, so even if there were negative effects, i would have to assume that they are minimal and very temporary.

Maybe one of our scientists could speculate further, although i expect there is probably very little, if any, research on the subject.

Cheers

BTT

 

[kharma2815]

Hi Kharma,

If you've done a 120 litre change on a tank which is holding around 135 litres, thats a 90% change (give or take 1.11111% ). Try doing the same again as soon as possible. If nitrite is still off the chart after that, i'd say you are performing the test incorrectly or your test kit is faulty, as that would be the equivalent of a 99% change.

Alternatively, if you have another test kit (or know someone who does) try testing with a different kit, just to be sure.

Something definitely sounds wrong with those results IMO.

Cheers

BTT

Hi BTT,
I've tried it with two different test kits and it comes up the same on both of them. I've also tested the water coming out of the tap and the water in the boys tank and both of those came out as 0ppm so I know there's nothing wrong with the test kit or the way I'm using it. I'll do another huge water change tonight and see if that makes a difference. If it doesn't I may just give up and scrap the whole idea.