Fishless cycle progress, normal?

[Dasmms45]

Hi all,

I'm at day 12 of fishless cycle and wanted to check the progress is going as it should be.
My current readings are 0 amm, 5 nitrite and 5 nitrate.
I've been following the Dr Tim instructions and kept ammonia as close to 3ppm as possible and now at the stage where a full dose of 4 drops amm chloride per gallon is zerod within 24 hours of dosing.
My ph is 7.8 and remained steady throughout.

Have added stability from beginning as per instructions and swished my other established tanks media in it a few times put some gravel in from other tank also over the course of the 12 days.

I guess my question is am I at the stage where nitrites will decrease and nitrates increase over time?

Do I just let it play out as I know any more ammonia i add now will be zerod in another 24 hours leaving 3 to 5ppm nitrite again and 5 to 10 ppm nitrate.

Thank you

 

[TwoTankAmin]

What test kits are you using. I ask this for a reason.

Most hobby test kits measure nitrate by first turning to nitrite and then measuring that. So, it you have 5 ppm of nitrite you have no nitrate at all. If you did it would be added to the 5 ppm of nitrite and you would get a higher reading than you have for nitrate.

Dr. Tim would probably tell you what I am about to, Stability is not the bacteria you need in the tank. Stability is a bottle of spores and the nitrifying bacteria do not form spores, they reproduce by dividing.

My next question is why, if you are using a SeaChem product, are you not following their directions?

Shake well before use. Turn off UV/ozone. Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 40 L (10 US gallons) on the first day with a new aquarium. Then use 1 capful for each 80 L (20 US gallons) daily for 7 days. Fish and other aquatic species may be introduced at any time as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days

https://www.seachem.com/stability.php

Have a read here and you will see what I am talking about from the horse's mouth
https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/blog/nitrifying-bacteria-mixtures-work-provided/

Nitrifying bacteria can live in a bottle for a while. Many think that nitrifying bacteria cannot live in a bottle and will say the reason is because nitrifying bacteria don’t form spores like other bacteria. This is a half-truth. Nitrifying bacteria don’t form spores, but that doesn’t mean they can’t last in a bottle (think about it – if nitrifying bacteria could not survive poor conditions, how would they have survived for millions of years?)

 

[Colin_T]

If the ammonia is dropping to 0ppm in 24 hours and the nitrite is going up, then you are onto the second stage of the filter bacteria development.

Don't bother testing for nitrates until the tank has cycled. Nitrate test kits read nitrite as nitrate and give you a false reading.

 

[Fishfinder1973]

I'm pretty sure you will need to add some form of ammonia in order for the nitrite to go up.
This is why I put a post up about just putting a piece of dead fish in the tank to cycle it.
I can't believe people simy ignore this way of cycling a tank,no numbers,no questions,the tank will cycle by itself and the brown algae developing will let one know when the tank has cycled
Too many wannabe chemists out there.

 

[Essjay]

The reason for using ammonia instead of a piece of fish or prawn or fish food is that you know for certain how much ammonia has gone into the tank so you know that enough bacteria have grown. With fish/prawn/fish food it has to rot down to make ammonia. You cannot know how much ammonia has gone into the tank and therefore how many bacteria have grown.

 

[Slaphppy7]

I'm pretty sure you will need to add some form of ammonia in order for the nitrite to go up.
This is why I put a post up about just putting a piece of dead fish in the tank to cycle it.
I can't believe people simy ignore this way of cycling a tank,no numbers,no questions,the tank will cycle by itself and the brown algae developing will let one know when the tank has cycled
Too many wannabe chemists out there.

Brown algae developing is a sign of a cycled tank?

That's a new one on me....

As mentioned above, using ammonia instead of rotting foods/fish is a much more precise method

 

[Fishfinder1973]

Brown algae developing is a sign of a cycled tank?

That's a new one on me....

As mentioned above, using ammonia instead of rotting foods/fish is a much more precise method

Well every days a school day as they say slaphppy.who cares about precision,all folk want is to have their tank up and running in order to get to the main event,putting fish in.I’ve cycled tanks enough now to be able to say the dead fish fishless cycle never fails,no numbers to do one’s head in,just patience,and everytime I’ve had brown algae begin to develop near the end of the cycle.Anyway a tank continues to cycle beyond the time when folk think it’s finished,it’s just safe to add fish at this point.The cycle continues,but thanks to the bacteria it cycles very quickly.

 

[Slaphppy7]

Well every days a school day as they say slaphppy.who cares about precision,all folk want is to have their tank up and running in order to get to the main event,putting fish in.I’ve cycled tanks enough now to be able to say the dead fish fishless cycle never fails,no numbers to do one’s head in,just patience,and everytime I’ve had brown algae begin to develop near the end of the cycle.Anyway a tank continues to cycle beyond the time when folk think it’s finished,it’s just safe to add fish at this point.The cycle continues,but thanks to the bacteria it cycles very quickly.

When it comes to the well-being of my pets, fish or otherwise, I'm all about precision.

 

[Fishfinder1973]

The reason for using ammonia instead of a piece of fish or prawn or fish food is that you know for certain how much ammonia has gone into the tank so you know that enough bacteria have grown. With fish/prawn/fish food it has to rot down to make ammonia. You cannot know how much ammonia has gone into the tank and therefore how many bacteria have

I can honestly understand your point essjay,and I respect your opinion as your way is a way to cycle,but not thee way.
I agree with you mentioning about nit knowing the amount of ammonia going in,and perhaps I should have added that common sense is needed,when it comes to the dead fish part.
It is just a method I’ve tried and tested and simply hasn’t failed.The cycle needs to be learned to understand how it works and I never see this ever mentioned in replies when folkhave problems cycling.I mean there’s no point in talking numbers if the “cyclist” doesn’t understand why or what these numbers represent and their job in the process,so I talk about a method that doesn’t involve that,for the “cyclists” who might be getting a little frustrated by the process,and the numbers.
I’ve noticed that replies to someone who is questioning the numbers during the cycle seem to explain the same method all over again,the exact same way that’s frustrating them all over again instead of mentioning other ways to cycle.I’m not trying to promote the method of cycle I use,just offering up an alternative.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

@Fishfinder1973
It is not chemistry it is mostly biology. At best it is bio-chemistry when one drills down into things beyond where we need to be thinking.

Biochemistry is the branch of science that explores the chemical processes within and related to living organisms. It is a laboratory based science that brings together biology and chemistry. By using chemical knowledge and techniques, biochemists can understand and solve biological problems.

Biochemistry focuses on processes happening at a molecular level. It focuses on what’s happening inside our cells, studying components like proteins, lipids and organelles. It also looks at how cells communicate with each other, for example during growth or fighting illness. Biochemists need to understand how the structure of a molecule relates to its function, allowing them to predict how molecules will interact.

Biochemistry covers a range of scientific disciplines, including genetics, microbiology, forensics, plant science and medicine. Because of its breadth, biochemistry is very important and advances in this field of science over the past 100 years have been staggering. It’s a very exciting time to be part of this fascinating area of study.

from https://www.biochemistry.org/education/careers/becoming-a-bioscientist/what-is-biochemistry/

Slap let FF do it his way as it is what he prefers. But I prefer not to use this method for the reasons below

Using shrimp or fish food​

One of the more popular fishless cycling methods is to buy a few dead shrimp at the grocery store, cut them up into chunks and add them to the aquarium. The shrimp decay, which produces ammonia to feed the nitrifying bacteria. There are a few drawbacks with this method, one being that the hobbyist really has no way to know how much ammonia is being produced by the decaying shrimp, and the aquarium does not look very good with dead shrimp laying on the bottom. Also, the organic material of the shrimp can cause bacteria blooms which turn the aquarium water cloudy. This method works but it takes time and patience and you will probably see a spike in ammonia and nitrite if you add a medium to heavy load of fish after the initial cycling. Note that some people use flake fish food instead of shrimp but this is not recommended because flake food does not have much organic material compared to shrimp and so does not add a lot of ammonia to the water, but you can use cut fish instead of shrimp.

from https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling/

The cycle for nitrogen products does not continue establishing beyond the time you can dose and test 0s within 24 hours for ammonia and nitrite. Other bacteria and microorganisms will be present but they are not the one for cycling, they do other things. Denitrifying bacteria will take longer to establish and will almost never be present in close to sufficient numbers for the nitrate a tank produces.

What may happen after you have completed a normal fishless cycle with controlled ammonia dosing and stocked the tank is that the size of the nitrifying bacterial community may increase or decrease in response to the addition or removal of ammonia sources in a tank. Add more fish etc. and the bacteria multiply to increase their numbers to handle this. Remove fish etc. and the bacteria reproduce less and the colony size shrinks accordingly.

I guess I am not as smart some here as I have only cycled about 150 tanks so far. The first one was fish in in 2001. All the rest used ammonia and then ammonium chloride and many used Dr. Tim's bacteria or bacteria from my other tanks to jump start things. I mean just because I cycle tanks in about 10 days for a full fish load doesn't mean I have any clue. I may just be very lucky.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/...o-go-into-8-summer-tanks.481266/#post-4178063

 

[Fishfinder1973]

When it comes to the well-being of my pets, fish or otherwise, I'm all about precision.

When it comes to the well-being of my pets, fish or otherwise, I'm all about precision.

So am I slaphppy and that’s another reason why I use the dead fish cycle.wether you agree with this method or not the point is it works and instead of turning a blind eye to it why don’t,when you reply,just agree that it’s an alternative method.

Thanks Ian

 

[Slaphppy7]

So am I slaphppy and that’s another reason why I use the dead fish cycle.wether you agree with this method or not the point is it works and instead of turning a blind eye to it why don’t,when you reply,just agree that it’s an alternative method.

Thanks Ian

There are many ways to be successful in the hobby; what works for one may not work for the other, or not be the personal preferred method

What matters is the long-term health and prosperity of our fish

 

[Fishfinder1973]

@Fishfibder1973
It is not chemistry it is mostly biology. At best it is bio-chemistry when one drills down into things beyond where we need to be thinking.


from https://www.biochemistry.org/education/careers/becoming-a-bioscientist/what-is-biochemistry/

Slap let FF do it his way as it is what he prefers. But I prefer not to use this method for the reasons below


from https://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling/

The cycle for nitrogen products does not continue establishing beyond the time you can dose and test 0s within 24 hours for ammonia and nitrite. Other bacteria and microorganisms will be present but they are not the one for cycling, they do other things. Denitrifying bacteria will take longer to establish and will almost never be present in close to sufficient numbers for the nitrate a tank produces.

What may happen after you have completed a normal fishless cycle with controlled ammonia dosing and stocked the tank is that the size of the nitrifying bacterial community may increase or decrease in response to the addition or removal of ammonia sources in a tank. Add more fish etc. and the bacteria multiply to increase their numbers to handle this. Remove fish etc. and the bacteria reproduce less and the colony size shrinks accordingly.

I guess I am not as smart some here as I have only cycled about 150 tanks so far. The first one was fish in in 2001. All the rest used ammonia and then ammonium chloride and many used Dr. Tim's bacteria or bacteria from my other tanks to jump start things. I mean just because I cycle tanks in about 10 days for a full fish load doesn't mean I have any clue. I may just be very lucky.
https://www.fishforums.net/threads/...o-go-into-8-summer-tanks.481266/#post-4178063

Well I enjoyed the read TwoTankAmin and you have your chosen method of cycling that works,and I have mine which you understand.I only mentioned an alternative method that does work.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Fishfinder1973]

There are many ways to be successful in the hobby; what works for one may not work for the other, or not be the personal preferred method

What matters is the long-term health and prosperity of our fish

Agreed totally,and I’m not very successful in a lot of ways,in fact I’m still new to the hobby and I couldn’t learn half the stuff others know on here,even if I live and learn for another 40yrs

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I do not understand how using rotting food is precision anything. Can you please explain how it is. When you drop a piece of shrimp into a tank, how much ammonia will it produce? I ppm, 5 ppm more? How much nitrite could be created? About how much time should this all take.

I want to fully stock a tank at the end of a cycle. What amount of shrimp will this take and how long? When should more be added? You do not need to be exact, just close?

How do you prevent too much ammonia or nitrite from being created? And if you get cloudy water or green water how can you get a proper read of the levels which are indicated by the color in the test tube?

I know for a fact that using an API set of test kits, which use the total ion scale, if I add 1 ppm of total ammonia (TA) to a tank that the most nitrite it can create is roughly 2.57 ppm. That in turn can produce a max. of about 3.46 ppm of nitrate. I also know if the TA exceeds 6.4 ppm or the nitrite exceeds 16.4 ppm, it can stall a cycle or encourage the wrong strains of bacteria to colonize. One ends up with the strains similar to those in waste water.

If I know how much ammonia I am putting into a tank to do a cycle, I can determine how much nitrite and nitrate I can get. However, other factors may reduce the these numbers- ammonia can evaporate, algae can use ammonia. This would reduce the nitrite and nitrate that gets created from any starting level of ammonia being dosed.