Fish Room ( Shed )

[Gun]

Hi Bungy

I've been looking at 'inline' de-chlorinators. I'd be interested to know what the lifespan would be on one of these..when rigged to a 'multi trickle return' system? Also, if anone has used one..are they reliable/do they do the job?

 

[Bungy]

Gun
Good point, hopefully someone will come up with some info. It would be interesting to know what volume of water one could expect from a trickle feed system over a 24h period. Perhaps someone can do the math with this one - ie based on say changing 15 to 20 percent of total volume of water in the system over a 7 day period by a drip-fed method - my question is whould this changed water actually need to be de-chlorinated prior to it being dripped into the system OR could a safe amount of dechlorinator be added to say the sump on a daily basis when one comes home from work for example thus eliminating the need for an additional drip feed dechlorinator system.....?

 

[rabbut]

10% weekly waterchanges, I assume you are planning on running a light bio-load?

For about 2% daily waterchanges, I would not bother with dechlor, as it will be such low levels doses that it will gas off long before becomming dangerous

All the best
Rabbut

EDIT to add, don't bother heating for 2% waterchanges also, as the variation in temerature in the system would be neglagable, even if it entered at 1c, which it never will

 

[Bungy]

10% weekly waterchanges, I assume you are planning on running a light bio-load?

For about 2% daily waterchanges, I would not bother with dechlor, as it will be such low levels doses that it will gas off long before becomming dangerous

All the best
Rabbut

I was thinking more in the line of 20-25% which is what im currently doing with each individual tank - seems to work ok.
Chlorine will "gas out" after a while but what about Chloramine?

 

[Gun]

Instead of constantly pumping/draining water to and from my shed (trickle system). Using the same system, how long would it take to shift 10% of the water (every 3 days) from each of my tanks? Just for instance, say I had (30x) 24x15x12.

 

[rabbut]

Well, I have no direct experience of defaulting water conditioner on waterchanges when chloramine is involved, but I know a few on here don't use conditioner for waterchanges with water supplies where chloramine is involved. I have done to date 5 waterchanges of 50% on my discus tank without conditioner, all after each other, and there have been no visible side effects. Waterchanges without conditioner as far as chlorien is concerned, over a short-term basis, without any consiquence. I haven't done it long-term, as I only recently found myself able to commit to experimenting with fish like Discus, having finding out water conditioner was optional just after opening my newest freshwater tank of 83.2g, nearly a year ago The likes of Miss Wiggle though have done waterchanges long-term without dechlorinator though with no side-effects

This link from the scientific sub-forum discusses the issue in detail

At the time of reading, the thread appears to have stopped at a conclusion of chlorine gassing off too quickly to be of concern. Chloramine will have the amine (ammonia) bit utilised as food leaving the chlor (chlorien) part behind, that gasses off equaly as fast. This supports the theory that filter bacteria initaialy origionate from the water supply.

One member states that waterchanges of upto 25% are perfectly safe with chloramine treated water. I don't know where this figure came from and it has gone un-challenged, so I cannot state if I agree with it or not, as there simply isn't any evidence behind it or against it. Something all posters should be avoiding in the scientific section I hasten to add

The time taken for a 10% waterchange, Gun, will depend upon the flow rates from your mains water supply. Can you measure this, and then I can do the maths for you

To give an idea, lets assume 30lpm/180lph is the flow from a "typical" tap (very low estimate I would think...).
You are aiming to displace a total of 150l from the system (10% of 1500l)
Divide the amount of water to displace by the flow rate, and you get 0.833333...(the 3 recurs)
That is the time in hours, expressed as a fraction. To convert into minuites, multiply by 60.
50mins for a 10% waterchange on a 1500l system with a input flow of 180lph No allowance has been made for moving tank-to-tank I should point out

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Tolak]

For a constant and controlled supply drip emitters are the way to go; http/www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation.php?cPath=38

Most folks use a carbon or charcoal filter to remove chloramine; http/www.thefilterguys.biz/chloramine_filters.htm

These can often be found locally at home improvement shops.

 

[Bungy]

Rabbut

Great advice and thank you. It would seem however that Tolak has found a US company marketing Chloramine removal kits - they claim Chloramine is harmful to fish - well they would if they wanted to sell a product. I have always believed that Chloramine was not good for fish however I do listen to thoes that have been in the fishkeeping business a long time and their experience must count for something - it may be that given the small levels of drip-fed water replenishment daily may not actually harm the fish at all - but would the Chloramine build up over a period of time - does it stay in the water...? Fish may not show adverse affects but what about the bacteria in the filter media - afterall Chloramine is designed to disinfect water and therefore would this not kill off the nitrifying bacteria...?

Im thinking that changing from my hughly labour intensive manual method of water changes at present to a sump driven system with overflows, I can easily change the water on a regular basis (treated or not) by simply draining down the sump and topping up. I can further streamline this process at a later stage by adding either of the following systems:

Run a hosepipe feed from my coldwater garden tap into the fish-house with its own tap/flow control. Run small guage pipework or flexihose above all tanks and provide a drip feed into each tank. The additional water would not be treated or heated but as you say given the small levels of constant water exchange would not present any problems. The increased water input would simply drain away out of the sump overflow to the outside kitchen drain.

OR

Provide a water butt/barrell in the fish-house - allowed to stand for 24 hours to dissipate Chlorine and bring up to room temperature - using a spare powerful cannister filter to pump the water from the Butt to the partially drained sump.
The water butt is then topped up on completion and if necessary, "treated" and allowed to stand for the next 24h period - or however long between water changes.

I think im getting a clearer picture now how im going to set all this up - one thing is certain though, Im not going to use the AIR driven system - purely for ease of ongoing maintenance.

Thanks again mate.

 

[rabbut]

Well, have a good read through the thread I linked to, as it covers most of the key points in detail Chloramine and Chlorine won't be dangerous, as nitrifying filter bacteria are introduced into a fishlessly cycling tank from the tap water supply anyway. Also, long-term subjection to chlorine and chloramine leads to resistant strains of bacteria forming in the supply The filter bacteria consume the ammonia part of the chloramine bond, leaving chlorien left in the water. This chlorine will gas of quickly. Nitrifying bacteria are a known problem with waterboards, as they increase organics levels in their supply past the legal safe limits, as they break chloramine down for the ammonia part

I have not seen any signs of irritation or poisoning in my Discus, having done 5 waterchanges of 50% each on the tank, and Discus are one of the most sencitive to water quality of all freshwater fish If chlorien does not upset them, it is highly un-likely to upset any other freshwater tropicals.

With a 2% waterchange on your system daily, the maximum level of chlorien going into your system will be suffice to raise the system to 0.08ppm (legal limit of 4ppm at the source in the UK for incomming water) and the toxic level to fish is stated at 0.3ppm, with a 12 hour gas off rate at that point. You are way below the danger level Upto a 7.5% waterchange would be safe with the maximum legal limit in the water supply. This comes arround only once in a while though for pipe flushes (once every third month in most cases), as full dose is saved for pipe flushing, and you can smell the chlorien at 4ppm, alerting you to high levels and hence a requirement for dechlorinator for waterchanges above 7.5% Speak to your water board about the ammount they use on a routien basis, and you can then work out the typical size of safe waterchange. It is unlikely that they would go half measures with flushing, as it would increase the chance of a chlorien resistant bacteria/parasites breeding in the water system

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Tolak]

Even if you go with a sump for filtration you will have a filter to clean. It will just be one large one instead of many smaller ones. I've looked into sump filtration, and by having my water change setup zoned could easily switch it over to 3-4 sump systems.

I do have a couple of issues with doing that in my setup. If one tank in that sump setup has a sick fish it has effectively spread to all the tanks on that system. All the tanks on that system will have the same water parameters, with what I do temperature is more of a concern than anything. I'll have corys breeding next to a tank of angel fry growing out, with a 10F temperature difference.

 

[Bungy]

Rabbut
Once again thank you for your very informative and useful advice. I must admit that my wife and I used to smell the chlorine in our tap water, and could taste it in our T. We called it "Friday water" - not every Friday but ONLY on a Friday. These days we dont seem to get that. I well deff contact my local water board to find out when they increase their levels of additives for pipe flushing etc and avoid these dates for water changes just to be safe.

Tolak - Yes you are absolutely right about the ease by which disease can spread throughout the same connected sump driven system by just one sick fish - I think it may be a case of trial and error and modify at a later stage if necessary however I will have two separate tanks which WILL be sponge filtered for quarantine and hospital just in case. As long as I pay close attention to water quality and feed correctly and strictly adhere to a quarantime programme for new fish then I am minimising the risk of sick or unhealthy fish thus preventing the spread of disease.

As for temperature variations, again this is something I have thought about and yes I am restricted in this regard to getting the parameters exactly right for breeding different fish that have quite different requirements however for now at least I will be concentrating on mainly Rift Valley species and some livebearers - I can spread out quite happily to include other hard water species requiring temperature of around 80. This will keep me going for now - remember of course im just starting out on my first multi-tank environment - should I wish at a later stage to provide totally different water parameters, soft water Discus and Angels for example then I can add another sump and separate the systems but hey this is for a later date. I need to walk first before trying to run.....!

Your advice and help are very much appreciated.

Bungy

 

[rabbut]

Disease in a multi-tank system is easily controled UV will stop everything but viruses if applied preperly. Get it fitted to each main return from a pump, and only the infected tank and the sump will ever carry the infection. Unless you have a mechanisum in place to isolate a tank though, you will still have to treat the whole system There is an easy work-arround though. Run a couple of internal filter in the sump, then they are fully cycled and ready to go when needed. Use a valve on the feed to the infected tank to cut off all flow, and throw in the internal(s) Wait for the water line to settle below the "to-sump" drains and treat the system as a stand alone one When treatment is finished, return the internal to the sump and open the supply valve again.

On a side note, the water board will only have a shedual for pipe flushing. If disease got into the system somehow, they would have to cranck up the chlorien dose. They are not legaly required to inform you when they do this, so there is always some uncertainty over the affair, but with small waterchanges like what you have planned, the levels cannot get high enough to do damage, due to the legal limits that are imposed on the waterboard

HTH
Rabbut

 

[Bungy]

Rabbut - thanks again - yes all my connected tanks will have their own flow control/shut off for ongoing maintenance. The trouble with this I guess would be once the symptoms of a sick fish become apparent to the keeper it could possibly be too late and the whole system is infected - a bit of fungus no problem but say the dreaded White spot appears and oooops....!!! Perhaps the UV route would be a good investment, I have looked at a number of suitable pumps for the job and thinking of around 5000 LPH would suffice (approx 1300 L total volume - round up to 1500L - circulate 3 x per hour for example would need 4500 LPH - add to the equasion the "lift" factor for the top tanks at say 1.5m and hey presto we have an approximate figure to go for) at this level of LPH we are beginning to get into the price range of pumps fitted with UV. The trouble is that when such a pump is advertised it only seems to give the wattage of the UV unit and not the pump itself....! I was originally trying to keep my wattage down to around 55w for the pump but it now looks like im going to have to think about 75w (plus any UV attachment) - my current individual filters are collectively running at around 85w so not much of a saving im afraid however I WILL be adding many more tanks going forward of which of course will not cost anything extra to filter,.

I think I need to do a bit more homework on UV units, would you recommend built in Pump/UV or separate pump and UV - Can anyone recommend a suitable pump for say 5000 LPH with UV....?

 

[rabbut]

Well, for a pump, I'd use a pond one. The Oasis Aquarius ones start at about 1200lph and go upto about 10,000lph. I'd also look at Eheim pumps. Eheim started out as a pump manufacturer, and this type of thing is where they made their name I'd get a pump and UV seporate personally. The TMC V2 range of units is good for UV apparently Keeping them seporate means that if one fails, the other still works, making fudging a fix quicker in the case of a pump failure (any pond center will have replacements lying arround) and will allow the system to keep running in the case of UV unit failure

Hoselock are also worth a look for pond pumps. Outlay will be arround £100 for the pump, but pond pumps adverage arround 50-60W for 30,000lph of output I'm shure a smaller one for 3X an hour turn-over would be suffice, but personally I'd get as big as you can afford for the pump. A 30,000lph pump will theoretically turn you over at 20X an hour, but after heat-height allowances, it would be nearer 10X. That kind of filtering will allow for the heavy stocking's you'd expect in a breeder's grow out tanks, and means the pump won't need up-grading as if and when you add more tanks Remember that you can turn the flow down if required

HTH
Rabbut

 

[Bungy]

Rabbut
I found by chance today a local dealer whom after thoroughly going through friction rates, loss of flow rate through bends, elbows and height etc he recommended the AQUAMAX ECO 8000. This runs at a very economical 65w and would provide all the power I would need. He is selling at £178 which is lower than RRP but still a hefty price to pay. I searched on ebay and have bidded on the same one at £100 - fingers crossed. Im clearly going to have to accept that in order to achieve the desired throughput I need to spend a bit more. As you say a separate UV unit is the way forward which I can add later (Who knows what Santa might drop in my stocking....)!!!

Im taking my doughter to Bristol to look at the University on Saturday so I'll do a bit of donkey work and see what Aquarists are in that area.

Bungy