Fish Losing all colour then die...

[Byron]

Youy must ascertain the GH and KH of the tap water on its own. If you cannot find this on the water authority's website, you could take a sample to a fish store. If you do, make sure they give you the number and their unit of measurement so we know. GH of 10ppm is very different from GH of 10 dH.

Why are you raising the KH, and how would you do this? This could cause serious issues.

 

[EmmaEsme]

Youy must ascertain the GH and KH of the tap water on its own. If you cannot find this on the water authority's website, you could take a sample to a fish store. If you do, make sure they give you the number and their unit of measurement so we know. GH of 10ppm is very different from GH of 10 dH.

Why are you raising the KH, and how would you do this? This could cause serious issues.

I need to get the kit I mentioned. We are leaving on a long weekend trip this morning and it's just not on my priority list atm. Interestingly, the tap water I left out to test had a pH of 7.0 and the kH was still 1dkh. If the pH went neutral, then doesn't that suggest something in my tank is causing it to rise over time?

In the meantime, as far as I can find, 2 dkh is average gH for the water here. This is a link to the most recent testing of our city water, across the main catchments. My water could have come from almost any of these apparently.

Water quality testing | Melbourne Water

Melbourne has some of the highest quality drinking water in the world, which we test regularly to ensure it meets strict water quality requirements.

www.melbournewater.com.au

I also attached a screenshot of a PDF from a local fish shop, with information about local water and recommendations for conditioning it. It seems raising gH is recommended, but I dont know my tap water gH yet. (Though it's likely the similar to the tank water, considering I haven't modified it and you said kH and gH are independent of each other.) I have nothing to modify it anyway, so I will have to deal with it when we get back.

Raising the kH is also recommended, as the water that comes out of the tap here is not appropriate for fish, being less than 1 dkH. I use Biotope Tropical kH Balance.

We use either UV radiation treatments or chlorine here. I also read that stripping that out is recommended, as the levels are not appropriate for fish. That could be done simply by letting the water intended for a change, sit uncovered for 48-36 hours apparently. (Seems this won't work for chloramines.) Currently it was happening as part of my pH stability product, Seachem Neutral Regulator.

My current plan was to stop using the Seachem Neutral Regulator, let the water for a planned change sit to remove chlorine (but I need to check about chloramine) and increase the kH to 10, then retest for a time. However, given my tap water went neutral pH after sitting 24 hours, now I'm considering what someone suggested about testing my decor in a separate space to see if something is causing the increase. (Particularly if it continues to fluctuate after the kH increase.) I can't plan for gH as I don't know it yet, but it sounds like I will need to raise it as well.

Thank you all for the help. I am currently thinking once I get things under control for a bit, I will sell the tank. I didn't remember how much work a small tank takes to get going and between my 5yo, young dog, chickens and mini-farm chores, it's being neglected imo. The fish deserve better than that. Cheers

 

[Byron]

The advice on the fish store sheet is false, or at the least misleading. Why would anyone want to raise the GH for soft water fish that occur in very soft waters, rarely if ever as high as even 1 degree? A rhetorical question really, the answer is, no one. And raising the KH is another issue...who says fish need this? All the tropical fish in South America live in very soft water generally wiyth a very low KH, and an acidic pH. You have soft water fish mentioned, so give them the water they need, which fortunately is what comes out of your tap. Soft water fish need soft water. The pH should lower on the acidic side. Do not mess with the GH, nor the KH as that will likely lead to conflicting pH. If it is rising in the tank, the usual reason is a calcareous substrate or calcareous rock. Whay is the substrate composed of, and are there any rocks in the tank?

For over 30 years I have kept tanks of fish in my tap water which is 7ppm, less than half of 1 degree, GH, and zero KH.

Do not use Neutral regulator, or any other chemical substances. The fish in post #1 are soft water species. The initial post was about your fish losing colour and dying...these substances/additives certainly do not help.

 

[Alice B]

Thank you all for the help. I am currently thinking once I get things under control for a bit, I will sell the tank. I didn't remember how much work a small tank takes to get going and between my 5yo, young dog, chickens and mini-farm chores, it's being neglected imo. The fish deserve better than that. Cheers

I totally understand - I gave away my reef tank. Tank, stand, pumps, fish, anemones, lock stock and barrel, the 2nd year I kept bees. Bees are my new saltwater tank and a lot less work. Dogs and chickens are another matter, children grew up

 

[TNG]

Thank you all for the help. I am currently thinking once I get things under control for a bit, I will sell the tank. I didn't remember how much work a small tank takes to get going and between my 5yo, young dog, chickens and mini-farm chores, it's being neglected imo. The fish deserve better than that. Cheers

I’d just enjoy the long w/e and not worry about the fish, if most of them have survived thus far most of them will be OK until Tues evening. I wouldn’t spend money on the horses though, keep it for the fish or maybe the dog and chicken .
My water is supplied by Gippsland Water, not MW, by I don’t expect the quality to be much different. I have a 60L container which I fill up from the tap and use it for water change after leaving to stand for 24hrs. I haven’t spent a cent on any stuff to treat the water, except on heaters to ensure the new water has roughly same temp as the tank water. The pH is 6.6-6.8 GH is 3-5 and KH is 2-4, and I haven’t done anything to change it, not intending to either for tropical fish. If I had to worry about the water and the like, I’d find a new hobby, the cost benefit just doesn’t stack up – but that’s just me.
Everyone is trying to help based on personal experiences with the best of intentions, but it could be overwhelming at times.

 

[EmmaEsme]

@Byron this reply makes me find your assistance confusing... If I shouldn't raise or lower anything, why are you even advising me to find out what the gH is, if you do not recommend altering any perimeters... Feels like the advice kinda cancels itself out and the whole conversation wasn't leading anywhere. Though, when you mentioned rocks, I did remember that when we bought the tank there were some smooth grey rocks in the sand. Like large skipping pebbles... Idk what they were or where from and I didn't put them back in the tank. Maybe somehow they left residue in the sand, since that also came with the tank and we reused it. Idk what sand it is or where it came from either. Hmm.

@AliceB You just reminded me that my father-in-law's hives are eventually coming to live on our property and that just one more thing. Glad to hear they are less work though. Hopefully he will tend them when he comes over, but hubby is also interested in learning about beekeeping.

@TNG Haha thanks. Nah, were down in the Otway's for some surf fishing and early beach time. Our son loves the beach. Bit chilly yet this year, though, would've preferred some 20°+ days. No interest here in the horses.
I agree, I've spent too much money in additives and replacement fish and the stress is taking out the fun and enjoyment I remember from having a tank. Our water is supplied by Yarra Valley, but I couldn't figure from what catchment, they vaguely state on their website that they buy bulk from Melbourne Water, so that detail sheet was the best I could do atm. The perimeters of my tap water don't match what is recommended when I look up my fishes preferences though and while I could probably just adjust them to it with little water changes of unmodified tap water... I really dont know if that's best practice for them or not. I'll see how it's going when we get home. Time for brekky.

Cheers

 

[Byron]

In the initial post you mentioned a fluctuating pH. A few posts in, #7 I think, you mentioned adding neutral regulator and a KH Balance. Fluctuating pH is severely stressful on fish, and it was obviously imperative to find out just what was occurring. KH balance and the regulator are likely to affect the fish. Substances dissolved in the tank water have the probability of entering the fish's bloodstream if they can diffuse across the cell membrane with the water that is continually entering the fish via osmosis.

A second and very important factor is that the GH, KH and pH are connected. The level of the GH and KH can clue us in to what is occurring with the pH. There are other factors too, such as pH increasing substances the water authority may be adding [I have this problem]. We cannot possibly know the issue with pH without knowing the GH and KH, and other additives.

Parameters should on a general basis never be messed with. You will have stability with the GH/KH/pH values left alone, though depending what the GH and KH values are there may be pH shifts. But they will be natural, and you can work within them once you know all the affecting factors. If any of the parameters does require adjusting, all three must be considered so you know what will occur.

The values for GH and KH here are ideal for all soft water fish. You/we do need to discover why the pH is fluctuating. But the answer to this is most definitely not adding regulators and balancers. The completely nonsensical advice from the store that you "must" increase KH, and pH (if this was also included) seems to me to be nothing but an attempt to sell expensive products. And products that have the capacity to harm your fish. Using these additives also raises the problem of having to prepare water outside the tank for all water changes, as the water than goes into the tank must be reasonably close to the tank water as far as GH, pH and temperature are concerned. The KH if it is such that it is impacting the pH must also be the same.

The fish in post #1 will thrive in soft water. That is the first very significant point. The pH should be related, and regardless of where it is in relation to the GH and KH, it will always be safer for the fish to leave it alone.

Now, having said the above, there is the possible issue of something calcareous increasing the pH. This may affect the GH/KH too, it depends what it is.

But for soft water fish, you do not need to be increasing the GH, KH or pH. Targeting any one of these as you can see is fraught with problems.

 

[kiko]

The advice on the fish store sheet is false, or at the least misleading. Why would anyone want to raise the GH for soft water fish that occur in very soft waters, rarely if ever as high as even 1 degree? A rhetorical question really, the answer is, no one. And raising the KH is another issue...who says fish need this? All the tropical fish in South America live in very soft water generally wiyth a very low KH, and an acidic pH. You have soft water fish mentioned, so give them the water they need, which fortunately is what comes out of your tap. Soft water fish need soft water. The pH should lower on the acidic side. Do not mess with the GH, nor the KH as that will likely lead to conflicting pH. If it is rising in the tank, the usual reason is a calcareous substrate or calcareous rock. Whay is the substrate composed of, and are there any rocks in the tank?

For over 30 years I have kept tanks of fish in my tap water which is 7ppm, less than half of 1 degree, GH, and zero KH.

Do not use Neutral regulator, or any other chemical substances. The fish in post #1 are soft water species. The initial post was about your fish losing colour and dying...these substances/additives certainly do not help.

0 kh? lol?!? that's a ph crash right there...
as for messing with gh/kh -> ph......everyone that uses RO does it...
anyone that uses chemicals/dechlorinators does it...
anyone that does water changes over 50% does it...
fish in south america actually have fluctuating ph/gh/kh
ph 6.5 - 7.5
gh/kh 6-8 which would be around 120ppm
the screenshots of the fish & feather the OP provided on how to fix his water are actually 100% correct and is exactly what I told him before..
raise KH to stabilize ph
root tabs which will provide the minerals and nutrients for his plants to grow...
and he can SLOWLY add crushed coral until he gets the desired kh of 7 which would be around 125ppm

at 6-8gh in south america like xio xingu where plecos/discus are famously from....
I find that there's been a lot of conflicting advice of what his issue is...
he simply has to fix his water...nothing more...nothing less..
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1. put water in a bucket for 7 days (use this water to change water weekly without the need for chlorine removers etc...)
2. shove a few root tabs in your substrate for minerals/nutrients for plants and some gh increase...
3. add a little crushed coral on every water change until he gets the desired kh of 6-8 to match his fish
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
problem fixed...
if anyone has a better suggestion on a way to fix his issue let it be known.....
I think there's been lots of contradicting advice on here when he only needs to do 3 simple steps...
suggesting fish live in 0 kh?!?!?!? and that fish in south america come from very soft water? on which planet?!?

 

[Byron]

Interesting that in 30 years of using water with a GH and KH of 0 I never had any of these issues. And you are incorrect about SA fish and fluctuating parameters. Different habitat regions can have differing parameters, but not within the same habitat to the extent that you could ever call them fluctuating.

 

[kiko]

Interesting that in 30 years of using water with a GH and KH of 0 I never had any of these issues. And you are incorrect about SA fish and fluctuating parameters.

I would love to see a test from a 0 gh/kh tank....got one of those rapid test strips? mind taking a picture? (with living fish)

 

[Alice B]

RO comes out 0 and 0 I think, I went DI partly due to the cost of water in North Texas, but for freshwater I just let the fish adapt to my tap. I was using RO to mix saltwater. I have never tried to run a tank on pure RO, those filters come with additives for a reason

 

[Byron]

I would love to see a test from a 0 gh/kh tank....got one of those rapid test strips? mind taking a picture? (with living fish)

The GH of my source water is given as 7ppm by the water board. KH is given as zero. Only when I raised livebearers and rift lake cichlids back in the 1980's did I increase these, using a dolomite substrate. The pH was in the high 7's.

The pH of the water at source was 5 or lower, my Tetra test kit only went down to 5 and the API down to 6.

I experimented with increasing the GH in one tank by using Equilibrium. The original GH was in the 0 to 1 dH colour, after treating it was 5 dH. I continued this for a couple of years but it did not seem to be worth the risk to the fish. Here are some photos of a few of my tanks over the last 15 years. The 70 had spawning Chocolate Gourami.

I unfortunately no longer have tanks, I made the decision to re-home my fish this past Spring due to terminal cancer preventing me from continuing. Things have improved on that front, but it was still probably the wisest decision, as the day will come.

 

[Byron]

RO comes out 0 and 0 I think, I went DI partly due to the cost of water in North Texas, but for freshwater I just let the fish adapt to my tap. I was using RO to mix saltwater. I have never tried to run a tank on pure RO, those filters come with additives for a reason

Ian Fuller spawns pygmy cories in pure RO. Since this is close to the habitat, it makes sense.

 

[Alice B]

I just spawned false julii's in a 7.5 pH with 120 ppm gh, and a kh of 40 ppm. And I didn't even try, they did everything and surprised me. Same water I have spawned Bronze Corydoras (Aeneus) in the same water, again without trying

 

[Byron]

I just spawned false julii's in a 7.5 pH with 120 ppm gh, and a kh of 40 ppm. And I didn't even try, they did everything and surprised me. Same water I have spawned Bronze Corydoras (Aeneus) in the same water, again without trying

With respect, this does not counter anything I've written in this thread. Fish will spawn in various parameters, most will anyway, that doesn't mean they are healthy or thriving. The urge to procreate the species is the strongest force in animals including fish, and they will make every effort to do so regardless of what we throw at them.

The OP in this thread was losing fish and asked for help. Members other than myself have attempted to ascertain the facts, hopefully to help. Fish stores propagating foolish nonsense is not helping anyone, especially in this case the OP.

Not that it matters, but I am a stickler on taxonomy...there is no such fish as "false julii." I know, stores sell "julii catfish" which are usually Corydoras trilineatus, but that is not a "false" julii, it is a distinct species. They are in the same lineage 9, currently within the polyphletic Corydoras.