Fish Losing all colour then die...

[EmmaEsme]

*Tagging users is working weird..?

GaryE Thank you, that does align almost exactly with what is happening since the eel was added, then removed. I did not add the water the eel came with to tank, (naturally), but I suspect it was already infected without symptoms.​

JuiceBox52 No nothing like that in the tank, though I am now wondering if there is something else...​

kiko My kH used to be 4-5 drops and it still happened. After the Gouramis died, the other fish didn't need it quite that high, so I lessened it... so, I'm not sure I will see the improvement.​

Byron Thank you, this is helpful information and is taken on board. I will do what you said about a tap water sample. I never add the things I mentioned to the tank directly FYI. It's more like, the water that goes in has a neutral pH and it slowly creeps up every time.​

Update:
I took a water sample and the photo of my fish to my fave aquarium shop. Water perimeters all matched mine, except they said pH is 7.4 and they can test gH which was 2 - and according to them, fine. The girl asked a more knowledgeable employee and phoned her boss to be sure about treatment. Both said Tetracycline and I have a bottle of Blue Plant Aquari Cycline tablets now... but honestly, I don't feel good about using them. I read it can work and would be okay, but also that it won't work if my pH is actually above 7.6. I also read that treating the water is not very effective and a food mixture should be made and fed to the fish. Then of course, there is the risk of destroying my good bacteria. Directions were 1 tab for 20L, every 3 days. I read online to do 25% water changes each time too. We are going away for 4 days this weekend and it couldn't be a worse time. Feeling defeated and seriously considering discontinuing the hobby at this stage. I did not have all these issues 20 years ago. Sigh.

Edit to add - I can see a second rasbora is starting to lose colour from the bottom up and is swimming erratically now...

 

[Alice B]

I have treated enteric septicemia with tetracycline. I prefer the medicated feed. It will take out your biological filter but if the disease hasn't advanced too far it may save your fish. Do a waterchange before adding meds each day, and don't be surprised when water looks brown, it's normal. Some strains of septicemia are immune to tetracycline but it is your best chance

 

[EmmaEsme]

I have treated enteric septicemia with tetracycline. I prefer the medicated feed. It will take out your biological filter but if the disease hasn't advanced too far it may save your fish. Do a waterchange before adding meds each day, and don't be surprised when water looks brown, it's normal. Some strains of septicemia are immune to tetracycline but it is your best chance

Thanks for the reassurance. I'm wary I'll ever get this tank healthy at this point. Our plan was to do the 25% water change tonight (I was thinking a bit more actually), then treat and repeat every 3 days as the shop girl said, for 4 treatments, which is how much meds we have. I did read there is some antibiotic resistance with tetracycline in aquariums. Have to cross our fingers I suppose!

 

[Alice B]

Thanks for the reassurance. I'm wary I'll ever get this tank healthy at this point. Our plan was to do the 25% water change tonight (I was thinking a bit more actually), then treat and repeat every 3 days as the shop girl said, for 4 treatments, which is how much meds we have. I did read there is some antibiotic resistance with tetracycline in aquariums. Have to cross our fingers I suppose!

Enteric septicemia is temperature sensitive. Bacteria doesn't multiply over 2 degrees or under 70. I don't know what septicemia your fish have but pick their happiest temp

 

[EmmaEsme]

Enteric septicemia is temperature sensitive. Bacteria doesn't multiply over 2 degrees or under 70. I don't know what septicemia your fish have but pick their happiest temp

Hmm, that is unfortunate. My fish like 24-25°C minimum, (75.2-77°F) according to my research. I can't fix or suppress the issue with lowering the temp then, as it would be too cold.

 

[TNG]

If the fish were mostly OK at the start, but the problem started around the 21st, I wonder if you added any decoration or something dropped in the tank which might be toxic to the fish around the 20th?
There must be something in the tank which raises the pH, and there might be something in the tank that affects the water quality. If it were me, I'd remove all the suspected decorations and do another water change.

 

[GaryE]

That assemblage of fish you have can handled a slow slide to 70f, and can sit there for a couple of weeks. The copper rasbora will be the most bothered, but they can survive cooler water better than the bacteria attacking them. They will eat less.

Since I can't buy antibiotics in my country, and haven't been able to for 25 years, I can't comment except to say tetracycline might help.

These things happened 20 years ago too. You were just lucky. In 56 years of fishkeeping, I have never had a septicemia outbreak, but I have seen them before, and once or twice, I saw them stop with treatment.

 

[EmmaEsme]

If the fish were mostly OK at the start, but the problem started around the 21st, I wonder if you added any decoration or something dropped in the tank which might be toxic to the fish around the 20th?
There must be something in the tank which raises the pH, and there might be something in the tank that affects the water quality. If it were me, I'd remove all the suspected decorations and do another water change.

Thanks for the input. No new decor has been added since the tank was started. A new plant and then the eel are the only recent things. Nothing has been dropped in there by me or hubby, and while I do have a 5 yo, he has never touched the lid or tried to open it before.

There must be something raising pH though, as that has been an issue since the start. However, that said it doesn't keep going up, it just seems to slowly rise after water changes and then plateau around 7.8 +/- or so. This last time we cleaned and changed I went neutral on the pH for the new water in an effort to lower it and it has seemed to raise to about 7.4 or 7.5 and stay there now instead.

 

[TNG]

Thanks for the input. No new decor has been added since the tank was started. A new plant and then the eel are the only recent things. Nothing has been dropped in there by me or hubby, and while I do have a 5 yo, he has never touched the lid or tried to open it before.

There must be something raising pH though, as that has been an issue since the start. However, that said it doesn't keep going up, it just seems to slowly rise after water changes and then plateau around 7.8 +/- or so. This last time we cleaned and changed I went neutral on the pH for the new water in an effort to lower it and it has seemed to raise to about 7.4 or 7.5 and stay there now instead.

Keeping fish should be enjoyable, sorry to hear about your experience.

With regard to pH, if there’s an item in the tank which causes it to increase, it will only increase to a certain figure, it doesn’t keep increasing.

My water is also soft which is good for a number of tropical fish. To keep fish that needs high pH, I have what is known as Texas Holey Rock in the tank. It increases pH from 6.6 (tap water) to around 7.6 - 7.8 and stays there, it doesn’t keep increasing.

To find out what causes the high pH, you can to keep each tank decoration in a small bucket with tap water overnight, and test pH the next day. That was what I did when my pH shot up from 6.6 to 7.4 overnight when I started my tank 8 months ago.

I mentioned water contamination because I lost 6 fish when I started because I had a piece of contaminated rock in the tank. Not a good experience, but we live and learn!

 

[kiko]

*Tagging users is working weird..?

GaryE Thank you, that does align almost exactly with what is happening since the eel was added, then removed. I did not add the water the eel came with to tank, (naturally), but I suspect it was already infected without symptoms.​

JuiceBox52 No nothing like that in the tank, though I am now wondering if there is something else...​

kiko My kH used to be 4-5 drops and it still happened. After the Gouramis died, the other fish didn't need it quite that high, so I lessened it... so, I'm not sure I will see the improvement.​

Byron Thank you, this is helpful information and is taken on board. I will do what you said about a tap water sample. I never add the things I mentioned to the tank directly FYI. It's more like, the water that goes in has a neutral pH and it slowly creeps up every time.​

Update:
I took a water sample and the photo of my fish to my fave aquarium shop. Water perimeters all matched mine, except they said pH is 7.4 and they can test gH which was 2 - and according to them, fine. The girl asked a more knowledgeable employee and phoned her boss to be sure about treatment. Both said Tetracycline and I have a bottle of Blue Plant Aquari Cycline tablets now... but honestly, I don't feel good about using them. I read it can work and would be okay, but also that it won't work if my pH is actually above 7.6. I also read that treating the water is not very effective and a food mixture should be made and fed to the fish. Then of course, there is the risk of destroying my good bacteria. Directions were 1 tab for 20L, every 3 days. I read online to do 25% water changes each time too. We are going away for 4 days this weekend and it couldn't be a worse time. Feeling defeated and seriously considering discontinuing the hobby at this stage. I did not have all these issues 20 years ago. Sigh.

Edit to add - I can see a second rasbora is starting to lose colour from the bottom up and is swimming erratically now...

you need the kh higher so your ph doesnt swing or even worst have a ph crash...
as for adding this and that to your tank...as I've always said...never trust the advice of someone that has something to gain from you...
and your rasboras going clear/white are not sick they're just stressed and will die eventually if you don't lower your ph
simplest way to fix this problem:
1. root tabs in soil for ferts
2. stop adding whatever you're adding to the tank doesn't matter if its iron this or seachem that....just stop adding stuff for a couple of weeks...
3. do a 20% water change wait 4 days and do another 20% water change....(this should clear some of the stuff you added into it)
4. raise your kh to around 100-120ppm...
3. lower your ph to 7.1-7.3 (almond leaves...not ph down products)
then take 2 ph readings....one in the middle of the night...and one in the middle of the day...add the 2 numbers together and divide by 2...that's your average ph in a day
if the result is higher than 7.3 add more almond leaves
if at 120kh your ph stabilizes at 7.5 you should be able to lower those .3 with tannins
also the simplest way to prove your rasboras aren't sick...
grab a mini bottle of co2 from a fish store...paintball store...wherever is cheapest and a diffuser and lower ph to around 7.2....
your rasboras should return to red in up to 6 hours and you will have your answer...

 

[Byron]

There must be something raising pH though, as that has been an issue since the start. However, that said it doesn't keep going up, it just seems to slowly rise after water changes and then plateau around 7.8 +/- or so. This last time we cleaned and changed I went neutral on the pH for the new water in an effort to lower it and it has seemed to raise to about 7.4 or 7.5 and stay there now instead.

I tried to explain this previously, but maybe not well enough. Please read this carefully.

The pH is tied to the GH and KH of the source water. You need to know the values of all three in the source water. The GH is now said to be 2--I will assume this is 2 dH, not 2 ppm, correct me if wrong. The KH is given as 4 to 5, again presumably dKH not ppm. The pH is 7.4 or 7.5 or 7.6 (all three numbers appear in this thread). The pH stabilizes at this level (correct me if this is wrong). Therefore, the pH of the tap water is 7.4 or 7.5 or 7.6, not lower. These three parameters are connected and this is what you have.

Using any chemical to lower the pH is not going to work long-term because of the inherent stability of the three parameters. Using any substance to adjust the pH will cause fluctuations, as you have seen, and this is very detrimental to all fish. This is why you must never ever use pH adjusters of any sort. You need to deal with all three parameters because they are integrated.

The pH of the tap water can be lower when it first comes out of the tap, and then increase over the next 24 or so hours. This is caused by dissolved CO2 which creates carbonic acid. As it is agitated, or just sits, the CO2 out-gasses. The pH then appears to have increased. But in fact, the increased pH is the normal pH for the tap water.

Water authorities also can add substances to increase the pH. This may or may not be your case, but it is another possibility for a changing pH.

 

[Alice B]

One way to lower pH and kh that also is beneficial for plants is a CO2 generator. It doesn't do a radical adjustment and it may not totally eliminate the risk of pH shock from a high pH due to a large water change but it does seem to help. Once my tanks are "older" the pH tends to soften off a bit naturally. My tap pH is 8.0.

 

[kiko]

I just think he needs to fix the water first before playing doctor with the fish

 

[Alice B]

I kind of agree. and I'd take the temp up to 82. If it is enteric septicemia, which is mostly gone, it nailed the trade for a while I'm sure, 82 will stop bacteria reproduction which is how it sneaked thru my quarantine tanks in the late 90s. I didn't see illness til they hit that nice warm 70s water and boom

 

[EmmaEsme]

Okay, that's a lot of information to take on. First I'd like to preface to add that I am in Australia.

@kiko Thanks for the info. My remaining rasboras are fine atm. The light was off and I think that's why it was swimming oddly. It's colour looks okay today, maybe I panicked. My concern isn't the colour loss, it's the red blotches on the fish that died. Also, I'm a she.

@Byron Thank you for explaining again. The values you are quoting are for my tank though. My tap water (right out of the tap - I have samples sitting to test tomorrow) is 1 dkH for kH (1 drop and it's yellow), nearly 8.0 pH and I still don't know the gH. Looks like the only option for me is to buy an API gH and kH test kit combined for about $30 or so. Melbourne has apparently one of the world's cleanest tap water, so it's probably full of chemical additives... Heh.

@Alice Thanks for the options. 82°F is above the recommended temperature for Neon Tetras though... I'm worried they'd suffer? Also, re: diseases, maybe fish supply is different here in Australia.

Anyway, to update in general, the tank is okay atm, fish look fine, a neon tetra may be missing. We did a water change last night (hubby took closer to 40% than 25%) and added the useless tetracycline tablets that are just sitting at the bottom seemingly doing nothing imo. At any rate, I'll raise the kH more on the next water change. Apparently my stock can go up to 10 dKh safely.

*Again, trying to tag people makes this do weird things...