Fish keeping ethics - species

[DAnCSF]

So there was post about Gars...far be it for me to rain on someone's pet keeping wants and needs. But I wonder about the ethics of keeping large predatory pets at home...yes I know if one is wealthy enough one can have a literal private zoo of exotics.... In terms of fish keeping it's pretty easy to find cute small fish in the 2-3" in range only to have them become family BBQ meal sized in a few years. I'm thinking SA Pacus, Sturgeons, gars etc....To me the real problem is when the pet Pacu becomes too large the owner may have recourse but to dump it in a local lake....It's happen here in SF. One lake even has a bin for people to put their unwanted pets.....This is a hard issue cuz we all want the cool, unique pet, hey I'm a guy and I understand. At one point I was hoping to adopt a St Bernard, Lilly...why cuz I wanted a dog and loved the idea of being the guy on the block with a Saint Bernard what street ced eh?..spouse quashed that idea pretty quickly. One hates to have more govt regs...but sometimes...thoughts and comments?

 

[Guyb93]

Iv said before in my opinion it’s partly cruel keeping any animal obviously exceptions like dogs who wouldn’t really exist without our intervention , but you do also see cute little fish in tiny little bowls so I would t say it’s the fish I’d say it’s the owner , it’s our job to try and emulate there environments and such so if somebody has the means to do so I say crack on cus I agree being male who don’t want a big dope

 

[2tank]

I believe that we should try to keep the amount of wild caught species in our tanks to a minimum if it is not done for deliberate conservation. I am now mainly buying my fish from a store that mainly buys fish from other fish keepers. Obviously there are exceptions like discus, and cichlids which are mainly wild caught by me.

 

[AbbeysDad]

It's truly a shame and there's no SPCA for fish! Not just a Gar, but any fish that grows large, Otto's and Jack Demsey's come to mind...often bought small, then grown and forced to live in a small fish tank wondering what it must be like to swim free - just plain cruel. Then again, what of the countless little fish forced to live in polluted aquarium water until they die at an early age.
BUT there's hope ... by informing newer hobbyists so they have the knowledge and awareness to be better fishkeepers.

 

[mcordelia]

@2tank I'm with you on the wild caught thing. At this point in the hobby there are so many fish that are consistently bred in captivity, I don't see any reason to stray from that selection unless you are a serious hobbyist with agreements with LFS's etc to sell on progeny then I could see the argument for obtaining wild caught fish to establish captive bred lines.

In general @DAnCSF I think this is a really important point for hobbyists to keep in mind, especially where the death rate in the hobby is astoundingly high. If people's dogs died at the same rate as fish do in the hands of inexperienced fishkeepers,there would be some kind of public campaign for education to make it so that the dogs wouldn't accidentally keep dying at the hands of inexperienced dog owners, but I guess fish aren't "cute" enough or something to warrant that...

 

[Gypsum]

The wild caught thing isn't that simple or clear cut (no pun intended). The thing is... wild caught aquarium fish, as an industry, sustain remote communities in places like the Amazon that would otherwise have to turn to agriculture or mining in order to survive.

If you are able to eke out a reasonable living by catching and selling ornamental fish, there are incentives to not only do it in a way that maintains healthy populations of wild stock of whatever you're catching (you need to catch more next month, or next year), but also protect the ecosystem in which those fish thrive. Conversely, when the wild caught market collapses because so many fish are being mass produced in captivity, you're screwed and pretty much have no choice but to work in agriculture and mining. What do those things do? Burn and clear-cut the bloody rainforest. That's far more devastating for the fish, the ecosystem, and the planet than netting a few fish out of the water.

Additionally, quite a lot of fish are caught towards the end of the rainy season, as floodwaters recede and fish get trapped in pools. These fish would probably die with the incoming dry season or get snatched up by predators. Instead, they get snatched up by fishermen/women.

We can ironically talk about the L046, the zebra pleco, the export of which was banned by Brazil because they were concerned about it being over-fished. However, the Brazilian government has approved of a massive hydroelectric project on the Rio Xingu, the only place in the world where the plecos live, and damming the river is very likely to devastate the populations of the L046 and other animals which aren't found anywhere else.

Obviously the fish themselves will have gone through a traumatic experience travelling from the river to the LFS to your aquarium, although that process is fairly well regulated, to be fair. Fish importers/exporters need to meet certain welfare standards in order to ship fish to Europe. And yeah, too many LFS's will sell anything to anyone, so there are massive problems with fish ending up in unsuitable homes. But at that point, it's the same problem whether it's tank bred or wild caught. Virtually no one has a wild caught Asian arowana these days. I don't know how -- or if -- that can ever be regulated, but there definitely needs to be a greater push for education.

Then there's the issue with mass produced aquarium fish -- where popular species are weaker and more susceptible to disease because they are overbred, and these large operations really don't give a damn about breeding strong, healthy fish. They just want to breed lots of them. Had an interesting chat with the chap in the LFS (a very good one) the other week, who said that there are certain species they don't bother stocking, because the stock is so weak that no one can keep them alive for any length of time.

I have quite a few wild caught fish in my tanks. My tanks are not the Orinoco or the Amazon -- I get that -- but I do the best I can for them, and I'm vaguely supporting a sustainable industry. Buy a cory, save the rainforest.

 

[mcordelia]

@Gypsum thanks so much for your insight! I always thought wild caught fish were industries of "foreign fishing company comes in, takes the fish, leaves" as opposed to local business, so that perspective certainly makes me think of this differently. It would be nice if fish had some kind of "certificate" like diamonds do, and like whole foods has their fish graded on a stoplight basis for example.

 

[DAnCSF]

Thanks to all for sharing all the various opinions. It just goes to show the world we live in is a complicated place with lots of numances and got 'chas. Ultimately it's we as responsible hobbyist that can have great impact both by our education of others and by being educated ourselves. Hey Gypsum,, you mention having some wild caught fish. In Europe is that a staple in your the LFS stores? And is there a premium on wild fish verses a farm bred fish? Again I'm just curious, in my LFS stores it's just a tank of fish there's no delineation between wild vs farmed. One would have to ask the LFS staff where there fish came from and generally speaking its tank bred.

 

[Gypsum]

@DAnCSF, Certain species (i.e. raphael catfish, L239 plecos...and undoubtedly many others I don't know about) are always going to be wild caught, because no one knows how to reliably breed them in captivity. Otherwise, use a fish shop where the owners are on the ground, doing day to day retail, make friends with them, and they will tell you all about their supply chain. The shop in question labels wild caught fish as wild caught, and anyway they'll tell you if the fish you're buying came from a tank or a river. Is that the norm for the UK? Probably not. I could make an educated guess depending on species, but I couldn't tell you for sure where fish from Maidenhead Aquatics, a national chain, were caught or bred.

@mcordelia, the people doing the collecting are locals. They sell the fish at a market, where they are usually bought up by a larger supplier/exporter in a larger city. Most of the time, those people then sell the fish to suppliers/importers in Europe, Asia, North America... any region where the fish are going. Fish fly to wherever, chill in a warehouse with many large tanks, and then LFS's buy them. That said, the above-mentioned fish shop has connections in the countries where the fish are caught and buys their wild stock from the second level of the supply chain. They get boxes of fish straight from Brazil, Indonesia, Venezuela, etc. That probably happens a lot as well, less so here, maybe, but I'd take a punt that it's the norm for fishkeepers who live in tropical countries.

There is a thing going 'round to try standardizing and improving welfare from the catching stage and onwards. I can't recall what it's called. But the nature of the industry means welfare during the whole shipping process has to be reasonable. We all know how quickly fish drop dead when conditions aren't right, so everyone in the chain has vested interest in making sure as many fish survive as possible.

 

[DAnCSF]

@2tank I'm with you on the wild caught thing. At this point in the hobby there are so many fish that are consistently bred in captivity, I don't see any reason to stray from that selection unless you are a serious hobbyist with agreements with LFS's etc to sell on progeny then I could see the argument for obtaining wild caught fish to establish captive bred lines.

In general @DAnCSF I think this is a really important point for hobbyists to keep in mind, especially where the death rate in the hobby is astoundingly high. If people's dogs died at the same rate as fish do in the hands of inexperienced fishkeepers,there would be some kind of public campaign for education to make it so that the dogs wouldn't accidentally keep dying at the hands of inexperienced dog owners, but I guess fish aren't "cute" enough or something to warrant that...

Hey MCordia, I'm with you on the death thing....And I believe that's cuz the hobby is cheap...in terms of the pets themselves. Comparing a tank of danios to say a a dog or cat, many people don't have same sense of responsibility to fish as they would a dog or cat. Yes, I know it comparing apples and oranges, but it is a fact. Especially when you consider that many people start out with a simple 5 gal tank etc....And if their initial fish die, they can just get more. I can't tell you how many fish died on my watch when I was a kid. That being said those beginners who do stick it out and learn, eventually become responsible fish keepers like most of the people in TFF. Fish keeping is also a good start for people who maybe eventually become dog/cat owners. sTake care and stay safe...

 

[DAnCSF]

@DAnCSF, Certain species (i.e. raphael catfish, L239 plecos...and undoubtedly many others I don't know about) are always going to be wild caught, because no one knows how to reliably breed them in captivity. Otherwise, use a fish shop where the owners are on the ground, doing day to day retail, make friends with them, and they will tell you all about their supply chain. The shop in question labels wild caught fish as wild caught, and anyway they'll tell you if the fish you're buying came from a tank or a river. Is that the norm for the UK? Probably not. I could make an educated guess depending on species, but I couldn't tell you for sure where fish from Maidenhead Aquatics, a national chain, were caught or bred.

@mcordelia, the people doing the collecting are locals. They sell the fish at a market, where they are usually bought up by a larger supplier/exporter in a larger city. Most of the time, those people then sell the fish to suppliers/importers in Europe, Asia, North America... any region where the fish are going. Fish fly to wherever, chill in a warehouse with many large tanks, and then LFS's buy them. That said, the above-mentioned fish shop has connections in the countries where the fish are caught and buys their wild stock from the second level of the supply chain. They get boxes of fish straight from Brazil, Indonesia, Venezuela, etc. That probably happens a lot as well, less so here, maybe, but I'd take a punt that it's the norm for fishkeepers who live in tropical countries.

There is a thing going 'round to try standardizing and improving welfare from the catching stage and onwards. I can't recall what it's called. But the nature of the industry means welfare during the whole shipping process has to be reasonable. We all know how quickly fish drop dead when conditions aren't right, so everyone in the chain has vested interest in making sure as many fish survive as possible.

In terms of the industry a wild/vs tank bred label may be something to catch on especially if the wild caught can be certified as sustainable and humane? I can imagine those fish as becoming a "artisan" and fetching a premium price , LOL we have such marketing for coffee etc....

 

[mcordelia]

I believe that's cuz the hobby is cheap

I agree, in part. A starter kit is what $25 all said and done with a few fish?

On the other hand, adopting a dog from the pound is $10-15, and a leash and bowl are like $5 each, so not that much more fee for entry.

I guess dog food costs more,at $30/bag for a month for a small dog, whereas tetra flakes are what, $5 and last forever? Maybe that's where the true cost differential comes in?

I honestly think it's two factors: 1) everyone has interested with a dog, knows that dogs need walks, etc. They're mammals so they're easier to understand because they're more "like us" 2) most people have not interacted with a well-run aquarium, but have SEEN one. "Oh they just chill at the dentist's office like that day in and day out? It's like a decoration! How hard can it be?!" It's very deceiving because whereas dogs require multiple 5-15 minute interactions daily, fish require 1-2h (or more) in single stretches 1+ times /week. When you care for fish, you can't be distracted, whereas with a dog, you can be playing with it or walking it while also caring for your child for example. I think a lot of it is misperception in what caring for fish entails, especially if some people consider that "success" is keeping the fish alive for a few months

 

[DAnCSF]

I agree, in part. A starter kit is what $25 all said and done with a few fish?

On the other hand, adopting a dog from the pound is $10-15, and a leash and bowl are like $5 each, so not that much more fee for entry.

I guess dog food costs more,at $30/bag for a month for a small dog, whereas tetra flakes are what, $5 and last forever? Maybe that's where the true cost differential comes in?

I honestly think it's two factors: 1) everyone has interested with a dog, knows that dogs need walks, etc. They're mammals so they're easier to understand because they're more "like us" 2) most people have not interacted with a well-run aquarium, but have SEEN one. "Oh they just chill at the dentist's office like that day in and day out? It's like a decoration! How hard can it be?!" It's very deceiving because whereas dogs require multiple 5-15 minute interactions daily, fish require 1-2h (or more) in single stretches 1+ times /week. When you care for fish, you can't be distracted, whereas with a dog, you can be playing with it or walking it while also caring for your child for example. I think a lot of it is misperception in what caring for fish entails, especially if some people consider that "success" is keeping the fish alive for a few months

yup and to honest what more emotionally satisfying curling up with your dog or cat verses sitting and watching your favorite Pleco...sorry Peter (my 11" pleco), you'll be regulated to 2nd place just as soon as I get my way too cool dog....LOL.

 

[2tank]

I agree, in part. A starter kit is what $25 all said and done with a few fish?

On the other hand, adopting a dog from the pound is $10-15, and a leash and bowl are like $5 each, so not that much more fee for entry.

I guess dog food costs more,at $30/bag for a month for a small dog, whereas tetra flakes are what, $5 and last forever? Maybe that's where the true cost differential comes in?

I honestly think it's two factors: 1) everyone has interested with a dog, knows that dogs need walks, etc. They're mammals so they're easier to understand because they're more "like us" 2) most people have not interacted with a well-run aquarium, but have SEEN one. "Oh they just chill at the dentist's office like that day in and day out? It's like a decoration! How hard can it be?!" It's very deceiving because whereas dogs require multiple 5-15 minute interactions daily, fish require 1-2h (or more) in single stretches 1+ times /week. When you care for fish, you can't be distracted, whereas with a dog, you can be playing with it or walking it while also caring for your child for example. I think a lot of it is misperception in what caring for fish entails, especially if some people consider that "success" is keeping the fish alive for a few months

I count it as a success that my fish are alive after a few months

 

[seangee]

but I couldn't tell you for sure where fish from Maidenhead Aquatics, a national chain, were caught or bred.

Just ask. My local MAQs keep detailed records of their purchases. As its a chain I suspect they all use the same system. If I buy fish from them I always ask where the fish came from, and they are able to tell me if they are wild caught or bred, and which country they came from. They also can (and will) tell you what date they were received at the store. Staff are a mix of dedicated fish enthusiasts (many of whom are breeders too) and people who just needed a job. Its easy to tell them apart.