Fish In Cycle

[TwoTankAmin]

Well exactly how would you expect there to be scientific evidence beyond the maker. In the case of Safe Start and One and Only the same person is responsible as you know. So let me turn around your question, do you have any scientific evidence that these two products do not contain any live bacteria and that therefore the dead bacteria they contain are the wrong types or that there is no bacteria at all, dead or alive, in the bottles? Moreover, I have used One and Only twice and it worked just fine both times. So I guess you can call me a liar on top of everything else if you would like. That is my personal empirical evidence. I can link you to as many success posts on sites all over the net as you can to failed ones here.

The reason so many people fail on this site is due to the mistaken directions for doing a fishless cycle here. They are some of the worst ones I have seen on the net and cause many folks to fail. They are being told to dose too much ammonia and to do it too often. The reason most fail with the bottled products is they fail to follow the instructions.

But the best evidence I can offer is this. The Georgia Sea Life aquarium built a 2 million gallon salt water aquarium to house a dozen dolphins. The project was sponsored and financed by the ex-head of Home Depot and ATT. Their names are all over the project. Sea Life chose to cycle this tank with DrTim's One and Only for salt water. They then put in the dolphins. Now let me ask you this. If the stuff did not work, what do you think would have happened to those dolphins and the other inhabitants in those 2 million gallons? What do you think would have happened to the people who chose to use the product? And the best proof I can offer that they did indeed use the products is this, pause the video at 1:03 and at 1:12

Moreover, SeaLife Aquarium in Tempe Arizona and in London England as well as Legoland California Resort all used One and Only. So this must really be a stupid organization. Three Sea Life Aquariums used it. Boy how dumb can that be since it doesn't work according to you OldMan. One after the other spent thousands of dollars on a cycling product that doesn't work and killed how many fish bringing down all sorts of bad press.

I am sorry, but I must say you are talking through your hat on this one. But prove me wrong by telling how many years you have spent working in either aquaculture or public aquariums in charge of these sort of things. Show me how your credentials and experience compares to those of Dr. Hovanec and his co-researchers, so I can make a reasoned decision as to who to believe.

As for the evidence they are the correct bacteria, it is in the published, peer reviewed research by Hovanec et al. The links to this are in the Scientific Section and I would now ask you the same thing I asked Ianho- if you think the research is faulty or flawed, please post why in that thread.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/394320-an-open-challenge-to-ianho/ I will add your name alongside Ianho's

As for proving they are alive in the bottle, I can do it using the same methods you can use to prove they are not.

 

[JDs4me]

Sorry to butt in; I was reading an interesting thread here until you fired off over a perfectly reasonable question TTA... If you experts want to argue (or bicker rather)on a topic away from the thread you are on, why don't you go and open up somewhere else and do it?

Its a real shame; you are very knowledgeable people giving freely of your good advice, which I have really appreciated as a newbie...and then you bring threads down to the school playground level, as happened to my thread on my fishless cycling ...where someone actually ended up barred from posting for giving of his advice!!

Come on guys, lets be friends here, I don't want to have to look elsewhere for advice because of this kind of behaviour...

BTW, sorry for ranting on your thread HMDD!!

 

[HM Dragon Devil]

Thanks, TTA.

Hey, JDs4me. They're not really off topic considering I am using TSS to cycle, but no problem. By the way I like the goth type decor in your tank

Well it's now day 12 since starting my fish in cycle and my tests speak for themselves. Theres plenty of success stories using Tetra Safe Start as well as failed, hence my reason for giving it a shot. I figured if it didn't work out the worse case scenario would be huge daily water changes, but that's no real biggie since I only have a 30 litre aquarium. There could be a logical explanation to why TSS didn't work for some folk, but what do I know i'm just a novice trying to enjoy my new hobby.

Anyway seeing my water parameters have been fairly stable I skipped testing yesterday and todays tests look pretty much the same as Thursdays 03/05/12.

Todays water parameters:

Temp 25.5c
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 40 ppm

Dean.

 

[JDs4me]

Cheers Dean, can't wait to get those fish in! - those test colours look good !

 

[HM Dragon Devil]

Cheers Dean, can't wait to get those fish in! - those test colours look good !

Thanks, JDs4me. although I think you have spoken too soon. Todays Ammonia test is showing an hint of green, unless my eyes are failing me

I skipped a water change yesterday to see how things would hold up, but todays test are showing traces of Ammonia

Once again I question if TSS is working.. Maybe my cycle is still at the beginning stage and the daily water changes were keeping Ammonia in check, but if that is the case what's causing the elevated Nitrates?

Todays results:

Temp 25.5c
Ammonia ?
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 30-40

Cheers, Dean.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

HM I would not be concerned. The level is very low at .25 and is not normally harmful to fish as there is not enough NH[sub]3[/sub] to worry about. At a temp of 25.5 (about 78F) your pH would have to be about 8.4 before total ammonia of .25 ppm is an issue. Keep an eye on things and if ammonia levels rise, then a water change is still your friend. the fact you get no nitrite reading and nitrates keep being produced at the level they seem to be is a pretty good sign the tank is pretty much cycled.

Think about this. If one is doing a fish in cycle with out any seeding of bacteria either from media or bottled bacteria, ammonia levels are expected to be noticably higher than those you have reported by day 13 or 14. Studies show in a bacterially unaided fish in cycle, ammonia readings can peak in the 5-10 ppm range. And they should at least reach a several ppm level (unless you are cycling with one zebra danio in a 50 gallong tank type situation). So I think the more appropriate question to ask is why they have not reached anywhere near tsuch levels in your tank. And there are only a couple of good answers. Either TSS is pretty much working, you might have accidentally seeded without knowing it ( I doubt this), or else your methods or your test kits are bad. My vote is still for the TSS.

I can think of a few reasons for why you may see this minor rise in ammonia. You could be feeding a bit more and so the fish are making more waste and uneaten food is also. Your fish may be more settled in and thus more active and are putting out more ammonia from respiration. You could have used an ammonia detoxifiying dechlor which can throw off results. You could have slightly flubbed the test.

Finally, it is more accurate for reading results if you place the bottle against the card next to the color bars like snazy shows in this thread http/www.fishforum...ng-my-new-tank/

My advice is not to change water beyond the normal weeklies most folks do unless you see higher ammonia readings. It may be that all your water changes have prevented the last bit of the cycle from falling into place. Just as too much ammonia can be a problem when cycling with or without fish, too little can also cause delays and/or unusual results.

 

[OldMan47]

TTA, if you want to disagree about the additives that is one thing but several ppm of ammonia will always result in fish deaths. Even the detailed reference you posted a few days ago gave lethal results at levels of less than 1 ppm in a tank with a pH above 7.0. I don't want to start a scrap here but will not continue to allow you to advise people on how to kill their fish.

 

[HM Dragon Devil]

HM I would not be concerned. The level is very low at .25 and is not normally harmful to fish as there is not enough NH[sub]3[/sub] to worry about. At a temp of 25.5 (about 78F) your pH would have to be about 8.4 before total ammonia of .25 ppm is an issue. Keep an eye on things and if ammonia levels rise, then a water change is still your friend. the fact you get no nitrite reading and nitrates keep being produced at the level they seem to be is a pretty good sign the tank is pretty much cycled.

Think about this. If one is doing a fish in cycle with out any seeding of bacteria either from media or bottled bacteria, ammonia levels are expected to be noticably higher than those you have reported by day 13 or 14. Studies show in a bacterially unaided fish in cycle, ammonia readings can peak in the 5-10 ppm range. And they should at least reach a several ppm level (unless you are cycling with one zebra danio in a 50 gallong tank type situation). So I think the more appropriate question to ask is why they have not reached anywhere near tsuch levels in your tank. And there are only a couple of good answers. Either TSS is pretty much working, you might have accidentally seeded without knowing it ( I doubt this), or else your methods or your test kits are bad. My vote is still for the TSS.

I can think of a few reasons for why you may see this minor rise in ammonia. You could be feeding a bit more and so the fish are making more waste and uneaten food is also. Your fish may be more settled in and thus more active and are putting out more ammonia from respiration. You could have used an ammonia detoxifiying dechlor which can throw off results. You could have slightly flubbed the test.

Finally, it is more accurate for reading results if you place the bottle against the card next to the color bars like snazy shows in this thread http/www.fishforum...ng-my-new-tank/

My advice is not to change water beyond the normal weeklies most folks do unless you see higher ammonia readings. It may be that all your water changes have prevented the last bit of the cycle from falling into place. Just as too much ammonia can be a problem when cycling with or without fish, too little can also cause delays and/or unusual results.

Ok TTA.

I'm certainly not overfeeding and there's no uneaten food. I feed 3 pellets of Hakari Betta-Bio Gold in the morning, and 3 in the evening, as advised by the breeder. Although he didn't eat on the first day and took a few days settle, but hes definitely become more active. I have not used any Ammonia detoxifying dechlors, I use Tetra Aqua-Safe for my water changes, nothing more. And I've not flubbed the tests, i really don't see how that's possible as they're so easy to use, unless they're bad (very unlikely).

Points noted, thanks

Dean.

TTA, if you want to disagree about the additives that is one thing but several ppm of ammonia will always result in fish deaths. Even the detailed reference you posted a few days ago gave lethal results at levels of less than 1 ppm in a tank with a pH above 7.0. I don't want to start a scrap here but will not continue to allow you to advise people on how to kill their fish.

I can understand your concern, but after noticing the Ammonia I performed a huge 20l water change. My betta is in good health and good hands, so don't worry so much.

Dean.

 

[HM Dragon Devil]

No tests today seeing I performed a huge 20l water change yesterday evening. Testing will resume tomorrow, but in the meantime I took the time to snap a few shots of my baby, inc a short video. He's 3 months old, crimson, black and gold iridescent.

BTW the tank is in no way finished as I plan to add some smooth black zen pebbles, pagoda and other stuff, but i'm not 100% sure which direction I want to go with this yet.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Oldman you have once again intentionally misquoted what I said. The first few times I thought you were accidentally misquoting me or putting words into my mouth that were not mine or that you did not read what I wrote thoroughly. You have now done this so many times I have come to believe you are purposely misquoting me with the intent to make me look bad and you to look good. I see no other way account for it happening over and over.

Here is what I said above: "If one is doing a fish in cycle with out any seeding of bacteria either from media or bottled bacteria, ammonia levels are expected to be noticeably higher than those you have reported by day 13 or 14." His reported level of ammonia was .25 ppm. In a normal, unseeded fish in cycle ammonia levels will read well above .25 ppm. They can hit much higher levels, as high as 5-10 ppm. But I never said that such higher levels were safe, or not something to handle. My point was that HM never even saw a reading above .25ppm.

Read almost any decent article on cycling with fish and it will say the same thing I have above, ammonia levels can reach 5-10 ppm. In days past the tendency was to allow for higher levels. Today, nobody will tell you to allow that. But that doesn't change the fact that if you do a fish in cycle you will easily see levels of 1-2 ppm and if you do not do any wc, they can get to 5-10 ppm. These are facts.

You have also mislead readers here about the toxicity of ammonia as listed on the charts to which I provided a link.

Even the detailed reference you posted a few days ago gave lethal results at levels of less than 1 ppm in a tank with a pH above 7.0.

So lets clarify things. The author uses .03 ppm of NH3 as a level at which his experience shows harm starts to occur. The Merck Veterinary manual puts that number at .05 ppm. This is not the same thing as being toxic, which is where death starts to occur. Toxicity is at a higher level.

At a pH of 7.0 total ammonia must read 5 ppm at 79F to be harmful according to the author's pegging .03ppm NH[sub]3[/sub] level as being harmful. Using the Merck Vet. Manual, 5 ppm of total ammonia doesn't become harmful until a pH of 7.2 at 80F.

At .5 ppm of total ammonia, harm first appears at pH 8.0 and a temp of 80F using the author's .03 ppm of NH[sub]3[/sub]. Using the Merck Vet. Manual level of .05, the harm doesn't occur start until pH 8.1 at 83F.

At 1 ppm of total ammonia, toxicity first appears at pH 7.6 and a temp of 85F using the author's .03 ppm of NH[sub]3[/sub]. Using the Merck Vet. Manual level of .05, the harm doesn't occur start until pH 7.9 at 81F.

At 2 ppm of total ammonia, harm first appears at pH 7.5 and a temp of 79F using the author's .03 ppm of NH[sub]3[/sub]. Using the Merck Vet. Manual level of .05 the harm doesn't occur start until pH 7.7 at 77F.

At 3 ppm of total ammonia, harm first appears at pH 7.2 and a temp of 80F using the author's .03ppm of NH[sub]3[/sub]. Using the Merck Vet. Manual level of .05, the harm doesn't occur start until pH 7.5 at 82F.

At 4 ppm of total ammonia, toxicity first appears at pH 7.2 and a temp of 80F using the author's .03ppm of NH[sub]3[/sub]. Using the Merck manual level of .05, the toxicity doesn't occur start until pH 7.5 at 82F.

And now to your the statement:

but several ppm of ammonia will always result in fish deaths

Tolerance to temperature, pH, ammonia and nitrite in cardinal tetra, Paracheirodon axelrodi, an amazonian ornamental fish

ABSTRACT
Poor water quality condition has been pointed out as one of the major causes for the high mortality of ornamental fishes exported from the state of Amazonas, Brazil. The purpose of the current study was to define water quality standards for cardinal tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi), by establishing the lower and higher for lethal temperature (LT50), lethal concentration (LC50) for total ammonia and nitrite and LC50 for acid and alkaline pH. According to the findings, cardinal tetra is rather tolerant to high temperature (33.3[sup]o[/sup]C), to a wide pH range (acid pH=2.9 and alkaline pH=8.8) and to high total ammonia concentration (23.7 mg/L). However, temperatures below 19.6[sup]o[/sup]C and nitrite concentrations above 1.1 mg/L NO2 may compromise fish survival especially during long shipment abroad.
Complete study here: http/www.scielo.br...n4/v38n4a23.pdf

In case you are not aware of it, LC50 means the lethal concentration at which 50% of the fish die. So the report is telling you that it takes Total Ammonia levels of 23.7 ppm (or mg/L if you like the British system) to kill half the fish. I think this is way more than several ppm. And I can find you mmore stidies which make your several ppm alway fatal statement looks as wrong as it is. Again don't get me wrong, I am not advocating letting fish be exposed to harmful/toxis levels of ammonia. I am simply pointing out that what constitutes harmful or toxic levels as nowhere what you claim,

OldMan I am really getting tired of your apparent intentional misquoting of what I say. As a moderator you should really know better. This does not help any fish keepers at all. And I think you need to be doing a lot more research before yo make some of the statements you do which are contradicted by science. For example, have actually researched ammonia and nitrite toxicity studies regarding fw fish, something you have apparently yet to do pr you would not have made the above statement.

 

[JDs4me]

thats one cool fishy you've got there!

I'm not going to let my girls see the vid, they'll want one each!!

 

[Tolak]

Welcome to your first day of Drivers Education! This week we will cover some of the controls inside the car you will be driving, basic rules of the road, as well as the frictional coefficiency of various transmission fluids and how they affect component selection when rebuilding your four speed overdrive transmission.




Wait.... frictional coeffing what?!? Yes, this is what you are doing to members in this section when you go off on a scientific tangent that is above and beyond what is needed when they are just beginning.

I asked in topics that members not do this. I created a pinned topic in this section asking that this not be done, and explaining why, as well as highlighting the proper section for these more advanced ideas.

Now I'm starting to see graphics involved in this section pertaining to things that rightfully belong in a more advanced section. I've chosen to include a graphic of my own for this topic, one that should be fairly easy to understand;

One of the tasks the Moderating Team does here is move topics & posts to their proper section, or remove them entirely. Expect advanced topics & posts in this section to be moved or removed, as the Moderating Team sees fit. While we do appreciate the more advanced ideas, and have provided a section specifically for them, they will no longer be tolerated in the Your New Freshwater Tank section.

 

[HM Dragon Devil]

thats one cool fishy you've got there!

I'm not going to let my girls see the vid, they'll want one each!!

Haha! Yeah he is an awesome fishy.

Thanks,
Dean.

 

[HM Dragon Devil]

Todays test results:

Temp 25.5c
PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 40ppm

Dean.

 

[OldMan47]

It looks like you have very high nitrates but otherwise things are coming along just fine. The only thing I see wrong is the need for a water change for nitrates. It looks like you have the ammonia and nitrites under control.